In other words, you are complaining, because you're doing it wrong...
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pm
by mmmPI
Shirasik wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:29 pm
Probabilities are independent so for piece items like character equipment that's pure luck. That's why people feeling whole system as gambling. This is the first cornerstone.
You don't have to gamble though, you can make item from quality material, and have 100% chance when doing the last step.
The only people who feel it's like gambling to me are people who 1) are willing to do so or 2) are not understanding how not to do so.
The second corner stone you mention unfortunatly confirm to me that you don't really get why some things are increased in quality and other do not matter. Quality in ammo or turrets to me serve to have more dense firepower on platform and you can't make this up with more ammo or prod module.
The third cornerstone is just the nature of randomness, it is possible to setup recycler to void anything that would exceed half a chest of buffer.
The fourth cornerstone you mention indicate to me that you haven't found yet how to master "quality", not a problem with the game. It offers a logistical challenge, yes, agreed, but that's the pointoof it ! x).
Shirasik wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:29 pm
All in all instead of adding more depth, quality system adds overcomplications that never pays off in mass production lines no matter how you automate that. While Factorio is the game about automation of mass streamlined production.
I am not sharing the conclusion, i feel it does pay off big time, and is possible to automate quite early.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 12:42 am
by Stargateur
I would like quality from the start and less level of quality. 5 is too much. 3 ? or even 2 ? my problem is ever I do all normal or I do all legendary... there is no in between. Well maybe rare, cause epic and legendary need unlock and I will not change my factory to get epic I will just wait for legendary... uncommon almost doesn't exist in my eye and epic is just "that could have been legendary...". I like the fact we can improve factory vertically with quality do more with same space. But I don't like the unlocking of quality and I feel there is too much tier.
Also the support for quality in game is still low. Specially for space platform where I need to manually ask exact count of item cause I only have few quality items.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 1:02 am
by mmmPI
Stargateur wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 12:42 am
I would like quality from the start and less level of quality.
But quality requires modules and those require a bit of research, how do you think it could be earlier ?
Stargateur wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 12:42 am
5 is too much. 3 ? or even 2 ?
That sound like it would make things worse for you if you only have 2 quality level, and you start with them available early considering :
Stargateur wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 12:42 am
my problem is ever I do all normal or I do all legendary...
That's your problem indeed. You have 3 level of quality available early, why not use them ?
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 1:32 am
by Stargateur
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 1:02 am
That's your problem indeed. You have 3 level of quality available early, why not use them ?
I explained why, you never read what people write, you never try to understand the point of view of other people. It annoying to talk to you.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 1:02 am
That's your problem indeed. You have 3 level of quality available early, why not use them ?
I explained why, you never read what people write, you never try to understand the point of view of other people. It annoying to talk to you.
Your explanation about why you don't use "rare" quality seem lackluster i thought you would have something to say but i can understand you dont have reason and just do things this way that's fine, it's a you problem as you mentionned
I tried to understand what you meant by "early" even asked a question about that but you ignored it and decided to be confrontationnal. You could have also ignored me if you don't like talking to me.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 1:53 am
by Stargateur
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 1:46 am
I tried to understand what you meant by "early" even asked a question about that but you ignored it and decided to be confrontationnal. You could have also ignored me if you don't like talking to me.
You didn't, you asked how they could be more "early" because they need module, and I find out this was a stupid question. but to answer "I tried to understand what you meant by "early"", cause this is a good question, by "early", I mean epic and legendary should be available when you unlock quality. I don't like at all they are gated behind other planet. Sorry my first message was indeed not very clear.
It's not like english is my native language so that hard for me to understand perfectly and I have dyslexia so my writing is not very clear.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 1:46 am
I tried to understand what you meant by "early" even asked a question about that but you ignored it and decided to be confrontationnal. You could have also ignored me if you don't like talking to me.
You didn't, you asked how they could be more "early" because they need module, and I find out this was a stupid question. but to answer "I tried to understand what you meant by "early"", cause this is a good question, by "early", I mean epic and legendary should be available when you unlock quality. I don't like at all they are gated behind other planet. Sorry my first message was indeed not very clear.
It's not like english is my native language so that hard for me to understand perfectly and I have dyslexia so my writing is not very clear.
You said :
Stargateur wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 12:42 am
I would like quality from the start
Which i still find makes no sense.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 5:04 am
by Shirasik
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmYou don't have to gamble though, you can make item from quality material, and have 100% chance when doing the last step.
Yeah, you divide big stake rolls into managing of millions of low-stake rolls.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmQuality in ammo or turrets to me serve to have more dense firepower on platform and you can't make this up with more ammo or prod module.
Turrets can't accept ammo of different quality. With low (really, very low and unadjustable) auto-load limit, unpredictable nature of quality will eventually lead to gaps in turret fire. Gaps = delays. Delays in turret fire on platforms = asteroids getting closer to platform.
Instead, you can place another turret next to existing and put a mix of prod and speed modules into ammo production line. This way you will get predictable and reliable firepower with better damage per piece of raw resources ratio. Nothing exceptional just economics.
As for quality turrets, turrets are equipment. Produce best quality possible once, place and forget. You don't need mass production of equipment because equipment never wears off in Factorio.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmThe third cornerstone is just the nature of randomness, it is possible to setup recycler to void anything that would exceed half a chest of buffer.
So literally confirm two design flaws in quality: 1) never touch quality before you progress Fulgora; 2) quality rolling results in massive resource loss.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmThe fourth cornerstone you mention indicate to me that you haven't found yet how to master "quality", not a problem with the game. It offers a logistical challenge, yes, agreed, but that's the pointoof it ! x).
Voiding by recycler isn't a challenge. That's progress-locked blatant item destruction.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmI am not sharing the conclusion, i feel it does pay off big time, and is possible to automate quite early.
Show me how to automate managing of delta of quality items with Nauvis techs only and I will agree.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmYou don't have to gamble though, you can make item from quality material, and have 100% chance when doing the last step.
Yeah, you divide big stake rolls into managing of millions of low-stake rolls.
And i automate them so it becomes statistics, a bit like uranium processing.
You have not understood the concept of density for turrets i'm afraid. How do you get more firepower from the same surface ? => quality, saying adding more turrets makes no sense because you need more surface. That's the same for the amount of legs in your personnal armor, or thrusters. Yes quality ammunition allows you to deal more damage with what would otherwise be the same spaceship. And no productivity do not make up for it. It does something different.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pm
The third cornerstone is just the nature of randomness, it is possible to setup recycler to void anything that would exceed half a chest of buffer.
So literally confirm two design flaws in quality: 1) never touch quality before you progress Fulgora; 2) quality rolling results in massive resource loss.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmThe fourth cornerstone you mention indicate to me that you haven't found yet how to master "quality", not a problem with the game. It offers a logistical challenge, yes, agreed, but that's the pointoof it ! x).
Voiding by recycler isn't a challenge. That's progress-locked blatant item destruction.
mmmPI wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:04 pmI am not sharing the conclusion, i feel it does pay off big time, and is possible to automate quite early.
Show me how to automate managing of delta of quality items with Nauvis techs only and I will agree.
What you are saying is either not making sense to me, or confirming that you haven't found yet how to master "quality". Because there is no way for you to roll quality before going to fulgora, and as soon as you reach it , then you can roll but you also have a way to deal with the nature of randomness.
Before you have access to recycler, you can easily use quality to make yourself some "rare" of everything you want, since you can't recycle, you just have to not overproduce. You can have one column of furnace with quality module in them, and everything that's not quality out of them goes to science. The column of furnace being only active when the "rare' material isn't backed up.
No gambling, no voiding yet you use quality. You can continue doing this even after you unlock the recycler and never use it to increase quality of anything, just put the regular one into science and use quality module in factories if you hate recycler so much.
I can't show you how to recycle before the recycler but i can post picture of setup that makes it so you don't need to manage delta of quality items with Nauvis tech only.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 7:06 am
by Shirasik
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amAnd i automate them so it becomes statistics, a bit like uranium processing.
No. Uranuim processing has kovarex enrichment. Since you have enough 235 to launch kovarex all uranium processing is an ordinary streamlined production.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amBecause there is no way for you to roll quality before going to fulgora
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amBefore you have access to recycler, you can easily use quality to make yourself some "rare" of everything you want, since you can't recycle, you just have to not overproduce. You can have one column of furnace with quality module in them, and everything that's not quality out of them goes to science. The column of furnace being only active when the "rare' material isn't backed up.
Long story short: you came to the "first cornerstone" about piece items and also you directly saying to use quality-dedicated lines which I mentioned in "forth cornerstone".
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 am
You have not understood the concept of density for turrets i'm afraid. How do you get more firepower from the same surface ? => quality, saying adding more turrets makes no sense because you need more surface. That's the same for the amount of legs in your personnal armor, or thrusters. Yes quality ammunition allows you to deal more damage with what would otherwise be the same spaceship. And no productivity do not make up for it. It does something different.
Or you can pump less fuel into thrusters making platform to move slower while also using fuel with better efficiency.
In a nutshell you building a platform as either a 10-tile-wide fast personal wheels, or as wide asteroid farming barge with thrusters working at 100% efficiency. Personal wheels neither need much firepower nor has a point in extra turret range provided by quality turrets. Even more, such tiny platform as personal wheels would rather need less turret range for rocket turrets especially and side thrusters to avoid asteroids instead of blatant ramming into them. Asteroid farming barge never need much firepower because it moves slowly enough.
So yeah, I can not understand your need for infinite firepower because you can switch to economical approach in resource farming and cargo transportation tasks and simply need other options in personal transportation tasks.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amif you hate recycler so much.
No hate. Recycler is equipment there is no point in hating equipment. Recycler isn't a solution, recycler is a costy workaround. That's it.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amI can't show you how to recycle before the recycler but i can post picture of setup that makes it so you don't need to manage delta of quality items with Nauvis tech only.
Please do. Don't forget your setup have to be fully automated and intended for infinite mass production.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amAnd i automate them so it becomes statistics, a bit like uranium processing.
No. Uranuim processing has kovarex enrichment. Since you have enough 235 to launch kovarex all uranium processing is an ordinary streamlined production.
It's ok if you don't see it the same, though, i am telling you that to me it is the same, in both case i deal with probabilistic result thanks to law of large numbers. Do you refute the possibility that it can be done by other player or are you insisting on your refusal/inability to do so ?
Shirasik wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 7:06 am
Quality is available before space. So I can start to roll for quality way before Fulgora.
no "rolling" quality was meant to say " with the recycler". If you just try to make things you are not "rolling" as that to me meant trying again and again / upcycling.
Without recycler you cant recycle. You thus can't "roll quality" you can only try once per set of material and if it doesn't upgrade you put the material in science an try again with ANOTHER SET of input.
Edit: and also if you have access to space, you can void stuff there no need for recycler, ressources are infinite, no need to complain about loss of ressources, it is yet another way to upcycle quality of things that one can use if one hasn't found yet how to do on Nauvis.
Shirasik wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 7:06 am
Long story short: you came to the "first cornerstone" about piece items and also you directly saying to use quality-dedicated lines which I mentioned in "forth cornerstone".
The fact that you don't understand that there is no gambling in this (1) relate to the fact that you don't seem to understand which stuff should be upraded into quality (4) i believe more firmly when i read you defiant tone about "using quality on nauvis", it seem to me that you use your failure as a argument for something being impossible.
Shirasik wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 7:06 am
I can not understand your need for infinite firepower because you can switch to economical approach in resource farming and cargo transportation tasks and simply need other options in personal transportation tasks.
You were only explained that quality increase the firepower on the same surface as way to explain to you what is the benefit of quality ammo. I don't understand why you talk about infinite fire power, it look like you didn't understand the concept. If you have a limited space, like in your personnal armor or in the front of your ship, you may be willing to put quality stuff there. That's all. And no you can't make up for it with productitivy. It's a different thing.
I thought the example of the number of leg in the mech armor is easy to understand comparaison.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 amI can't show you how to recycle before the recycler but i can post picture of setup that makes it so you don't need to manage delta of quality items with Nauvis tech only.
Please do. Don't forget your setup have to be fully automated and intended for infinite mass production.
I don't know what you called infinite mass production, you just have to make larger or duplicate of this mock-up that uses red science to void basic and "good" material, and keep only the "rare".
Obviously in a real base you wouldn't be making just red science, because you'd run out of research quickly, but the concept is fairly straightforward and can be used with other sciences as your base grow.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 1:39 pm
by mrkev
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 am
I can't show you how to recycle before the recycler but i can post picture of setup that makes it so you don't need to manage delta of quality items with Nauvis tech only.
I can. You can use crushers and produce almost all standard items in space. This approach has some positives and some negatives:
+ When you get advanced meteor processing, you can get all basic resources (iron ore, copper ore, carbon, sulfur, calcite)
+ Space is an infinite suply of resources
+ The initial investment is pretty low
+ Crushers have 80% return rate
- You have to start at Gleba to get the advanced meteor processing and coal synthesis
- Crushers have only two slots, so you'll get very low initial quality boost
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 am
I can't show you how to recycle before the recycler but i can post picture of setup that makes it so you don't need to manage delta of quality items with Nauvis tech only.
- You have to start at Gleba to get the advanced meteor processing and coal synthesis
Ahh !
I agree in that you are explaining a valid way to upcycle quality, although it doesn't use "only nauvis tech", and isn't "recycling" as in breaking apart something that could get locked.
That's why i didn't edited the last sentence when i mentionned it in previous post ^^
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 2:45 pm
by meganothing
Our current electronic chip production (computer-ICs etc.) is, if you want to call it that, the same gamble as Factorios quality. When TMSC or Intel start with a new process their yield of working chips starts somewhere in the single digit percentages, the rest is (hopefully) recycled or thrown away. And they start mass production at yields of less than 20% (as far as I remember, if someone wants he can post accurate numbers). It means they recycle about 4 of every 5 top CPUs they produce.
So, even if you call that gambling (i.e. producing on pure chance), someone still makes reliably money with that.
The interesting question is, since Intel does operate gambling joints, why didn't they have to relocate to Nevada?
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 4:13 pm
by mrkev
meganothing wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 2:45 pm
Our current electronic chip production (computer-ICs etc.) is, if you want to call it that, the same gamble as Factorios quality. When TMSC or Intel start with a new process their yield of working chips starts somewhere in the single digit percentages, the rest is (hopefully) recycled or thrown away. And they start mass production at yields of less than 20% (as far as I remember, if someone wants he can post accurate numbers). It means they recycle about 4 of every 5 top CPUs they produce.
This is true for the most advanced stuff. It is also one of the reasons why the vast majority of ICs don't use anything past the 28nm process.
When I worked for a company that was designing ICs for automotive, the most commonly used process was 1um. Because those chips didn't need billions of transistors, the "legacy" process is reliable and you can get better temperature stress resistance.
Another anecdote is, that in the old days, this was very much common in the production of all electronic components. The highly unreliable process meant, that something like 20% of the production was high quality, ~60% was usable and 20% was garbage. They'd often measure and stress test each component at the output and then assign two or three different part names, depending on the results and trash those that didn't meet the minimum requirements. Soviets were especially known for this, even taking the top 5% for military stockpile.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 5:35 am
I can't show you how to recycle before the recycler but i can post picture of setup that makes it so you don't need to manage delta of quality items with Nauvis tech only.
- You have to start at Gleba to get the advanced meteor processing and coal synthesis
Ahh !
I agree in that you are explaining a valid way to upcycle quality, although it doesn't use "only nauvis tech", and isn't "recycling" as in breaking apart something that could get locked.
That's why i didn't edited the last sentence when i mentionned it in previous post ^^
Even with just the tech from Nauvis, this will give you a stable source of iron ore. You'd have to make the quality copper and coal elsewhere, but that's still doable. You could balance the whole thing by matching the iron ore production to the copper ore prod. and burning the excess coal. This will let you produce every basic item.
Re: Quality killed this game for me
Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 4:26 pm
by Shirasik
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 10:02 am
It's ok if you don't see it the same, though, i am telling you that to me it is the same, in both case i deal with probabilistic result thanks to law of large numbers. Do you refute the possibility that it can be done by other player or are you insisting on your refusal/inability to do so ?
U235 probabilities aren't example or quality probabilities because once you have a fixed number of U235 you can switch to guaranteed result recipe without any probabilities involved.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 10:02 am
no "rolling" quality was meant to say " with the recycler". If you just try to make things you are not "rolling" as that to me meant trying again and again / upcycling.
Without recycler you cant recycle. You thus can't "roll quality" you can only try once per set of material and if it doesn't upgrade you put the material in science an try again with ANOTHER SET of input.
roll the d100 hoping for natural 100
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 10:02 am
Edit: and also if you have access to space, you can void stuff there no need for recycler, ressources are infinite, no need to complain about loss of ressources, it is yet another way to upcycle quality of things that one can use if one hasn't found yet how to do on Nauvis.
Just to clarify: do you suggest to use 30k copper, 17k iron and some oil products worth rocket to void couple hundreds of items? Instead of putting all of that into research from the beginning.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 10:02 am
The fact that you don't understand that there is no gambling in this (1) relate to the fact that you don't seem to understand which stuff should be upraded into quality (4) i believe more firmly when i read you defiant tone about "using quality on nauvis", it seem to me that you use your failure as a argument for something being impossible.
Whatever players wants to upgrade into quality have to be upgraded into quality. That's clear?
Believe whatever you wish to.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 10:02 am
You were only explained that quality increase the firepower on the same surface as way to explain to you what is the benefit of quality ammo. I don't understand why you talk about infinite fire power, it look like you didn't understand the concept. If you have a limited space, like in your personnal armor or in the front of your ship, you may be willing to put quality stuff there. That's all. And no you can't make up for it with productitivy. It's a different thing.
I thought the example of the number of leg in the mech armor is easy to understand comparaison.
You were explained only that you don't need ammo above common quality because you have other options to manage with what you have so your ammo example isn't valid.
mmmPI wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 10:24 am
I don't know what you called infinite mass production
Simple. Have some factory that uses quality probabilities. It has input belt lines for raw resources and output belt lines for production. The only internal buffers are internal belts capacity. As Nauvis-tech-only factory, it can't void any items. Now apply infinite resources to input belt lines and extend factory uptime into eternity. Will it stop working due to item clogging or not?
meganothing wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 2:45 pm
Our current electronic chip production (computer-ICs etc.) is, if you want to call it that, the same gamble as Factorios quality. When TMSC or Intel start with a new process their yield of working chips starts somewhere in the single digit percentages, the rest is (hopefully) recycled or thrown away. And they start mass production at yields of less than 20% (as far as I remember, if someone wants he can post accurate numbers). It means they recycle about 4 of every 5 top CPUs they produce.
Another anecdote is, that in the old days, this was very much common in the production of all electronic components. The highly unreliable process meant, that something like 20% of the production was high quality, ~60% was usable and 20% was garbage. They'd often measure and stress test each component at the output and then assign two or three different part names, depending on the results and trash those that didn't meet the minimum requirements. Soviets were especially known for this, even taking the top 5% for military stockpile.
I went to college for something similar a long time ago. I studied stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma (Note, this Wikipedia article doesn't correctly ascribe this process to Japan, where it originated in the early/mid 20th century*). No manufacturing process is 100%. If anything, the addition of Quality has made Factorio much more realistic (and more interesting).
*Note note: You can see some of this Japanese --> American manufacturing knowledge transfer dynamic, portrayed relatively accurately, in the funny movie Gung Ho. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gung_Ho_(film).
