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Interim decay code added as well as some bug fixes. Average time between refueling is about 120-150 minutes

who is MOX and what happened to 4.7%?

Ratzap wrote:

Fatmice wrote:

Speadge wrote:Well. Tschenobyl did go 'boom' without any hollywood script involved

The boom you are referring to is a steam explosion, not the mushroom clouds that everyone is talking about when they say "boom." That reactor is also a badly designed one. You want a badly designed reactor?

A well designed reactor should never go boom, steam or mushroom. I would hope a space faring "survivor" would have with him/her the technology of a society that knows how to make a well behave reactor.

Exactly. Speadge might want to educate himself - Youtube has a large variety of good material about PWRs. Then look up advanced reactors and you'll find things like molten salt designs which pretty much cannot explode at all. Worst case they drain off into a sump and the whole lot solidifies - not fun to clean up but a hell of a lot safer than boiling high pressure water.

sorry, i just LOVE quoting that.. uneducated me - no sense of reality nor gameplay...
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-164

The problem is, that changing between the production levels won't be instant, so trying it shut down too late might not be enough to prevent overheating and explosion ... a big one.

dont get me wrong.. but that sounds exactly as i suggested

Speadge wrote:who is MOX and what happened to 4.7%?

It's a mixed oxide fuel.

Speadge wrote:

Ratzap wrote:

Fatmice wrote:

Speadge wrote:Well. Tschenobyl did go 'boom' without any hollywood script involved

The boom you are referring to is a steam explosion, not the mushroom clouds that everyone is talking about when they say "boom." That reactor is also a badly designed one. You want a badly designed reactor?

A well designed reactor should never go boom, steam or mushroom. I would hope a space faring "survivor" would have with him/her the technology of a society that knows how to make a well behave reactor.

sorry, i just LOVE quoting that.. uneducated me - no sense of reality nor gameplay...
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-164

The problem is, that changing between the production levels won't be instant, so trying it shut down too late might not be enough to prevent overheating and explosion ... a big one.

dont get me wrong.. but that sounds exactly as i suggested

It appears this is very good news! They've taken all of my concepts and made it into the base game. I am very happy. This does not mean I will abandon this mod once the base game has nuclear power. In fact, it will make nuclear power modding even more powerful. Essentially, they took the fuel-assembly in my "black-box" core and made into a tile-able assembly, each producing heat. This is great as if I were do to monte carlo heat transfer and neutron decay simulation through lua, it would be terribly slow. The amount of computation is really not meant or lua.

I can't wait to see how I can adapt and expand my nuclear mod with the base game's own design.

Regarding explosion, it is not hard to add steam explosion if the reactor is too hot. However, this is not due to failure of scram procedure but due to secondary/tertiary failure. So yes, I can add this mode of failure with the resulting steam explosion.

Speadge wrote:

Ratzap wrote:

Fatmice wrote:

Speadge wrote:Well. Tschenobyl did go 'boom' without any hollywood script involved

The boom you are referring to is a steam explosion, not the mushroom clouds that everyone is talking about when they say "boom." That reactor is also a badly designed one. You want a badly designed reactor?

A well designed reactor should never go boom, steam or mushroom. I would hope a space faring "survivor" would have with him/her the technology of a society that knows how to make a well behave reactor.

Exactly. Speadge might want to educate himself - Youtube has a large variety of good material about PWRs. Then look up advanced reactors and you'll find things like molten salt designs which pretty much cannot explode at all. Worst case they drain off into a sump and the whole lot solidifies - not fun to clean up but a hell of a lot safer than boiling high pressure water.

sorry, i just LOVE quoting that.. uneducated me - no sense of reality nor gameplay...
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-164

The problem is, that changing between the production levels won't be instant, so trying it shut down too late might not be enough to prevent overheating and explosion ... a big one.

dont get me wrong.. but that sounds exactly as i suggested

and the devs are getting an ear-full from those who know better as well.

Misinformation about reactors is why paranoia continues to exist in the real world. After the Fukushima reactor suffered major damage from the tsunami, the reaction of the people was that all nuclear reactors would explode at a moments notice, with radical ideas that if we don't dismantle all reactors in the world, we'll suffer "a big one" making Earth uninhabitable.

While this buzz has fortunately died down over the years, the misinformation continues to spread. It needs to die.

Fatmice wrote:Interim decay code added as well as some bug fixes.

Fuel decay

Decay.png

Average time between refueling is about 120-150 minutes

How critical are the oil refineries for this? I can see that sulfuric acid is required, but that's quite the scale of chemical plants and beacons being utilized for just sulfuric acid.

Light wrote: and the devs are getting an ear-full from those who know better as well.

Misinformation about reactors is why paranoia continues to exist in the real world. After the Fukushima reactor suffered major damage from the tsunami, the reaction of the people was that all nuclear reactors would explode at a moments notice, with radical ideas that if we don't dismantle all reactors in the world, we'll suffer "a big one" making Earth uninhabitable.

While this buzz has fortunately died down over the years, the misinformation continues to spread. It needs to die.

Indeed, what people do not communicate is that the steam explosion in the Fukushima event is due to secondary and tertiary failure and happened much much later (48hrs later...) than the actual core scram event. The diesel backup generator (secondary), used to provide emergency power for the auxiliary pumps to remove latent heat from the core, got flooded and failed. The backup backup diesel generators (tertiary) to the the backups worked but only was not sufficiently long enough to get the secondary restored. The tertiary was only meant to be used as a last resort! They did what they could. In addition to that, the sea water infiltrated some of the plumbing. The salt wrecked havoc on the bearings in the auxiliary pumps so they started to fail. This is unprecedented. Auxiliary pump failures meant that the cooling pond, where all of the spent fuels sit, will also not receive cooling. So water in there started to evaporate. This is why they had to pump in sea water to cool them. All of this is unprecedented due to critical failure of multiple points and backups that normally do not fail. The end result is a steam explosion because the core was getting too hot and water hydrolysis started. Hydrogen gas just needed to find a spark source and then boom.

There are always redundancies upon redundancies for fail-safe measures. Reactors do not go boom due to a criticality event in the core. They go boom because of other failure points and the boom is not of the core but the other stuff. This unfortunately is inescapable though it can be mitigated to a reasonable extent.

Light wrote: How critical are the oil refineries for this? I can see that sulfuric acid is required, but that's quite the scale of chemical plants and beacons being utilized for just sulfuric acid.

The sulfuric acid is minor. What is really major is the petrol gas that you will need. That setup is for consumption of 25 petrol /s max. The reason I used beacons is I had such small room to play with so I needed to make it small.

Fatmice wrote:

Light wrote: and the devs are getting an ear-full from those who know better as well.

Misinformation about reactors is why paranoia continues to exist in the real world. After the Fukushima reactor suffered major damage from the tsunami, the reaction of the people was that all nuclear reactors would explode at a moments notice, with radical ideas that if we don't dismantle all reactors in the world, we'll suffer "a big one" making Earth uninhabitable.

While this buzz has fortunately died down over the years, the misinformation continues to spread. It needs to die.

Indeed, what people do not communicate is that the steam explosion in the Fukushima event is due to secondary and tertiary failure and happened much much later (48hrs later...) than the actual core scram event. The diesel backup generator (secondary), used to provide emergency power for the auxiliary pumps to remove latent heat from the core, got flooded and failed. The backup backup diesel generators (tertiary) to the the backups worked but only was not sufficiently long enough to get the secondary restored. The tertiary was only meant to be used as a last resort! They did what they could. In addition to that, the sea water infiltrated some of the plumbing. The salt wrecked havoc on the bearings in the auxiliary pumps so they started to fail. This is unprecedented. Auxiliary pump failures meant that the cooling pond, where all of the spent fuels sit, will also not receive cooling. So water in there started to evaporate. This is why they had to pump in sea water to cool them. All of this is unprecedented due to critical failure of multiple points and backups that normally do not fail. The end result is a steam explosion because the core was getting too hot and water hydrolysis started. Hydrogen gas just needed to find a spark source and then boom.

There are always redundancies upon redundancies for fail-safe measures. Reactors do not go boom due to a criticality event in the core. They go boom because of other failure points and the boom is not of the core but the other stuff. This unfortunately is inescapable though it can be mitigated to a reasonable extent.

After losing someone dear from the tsunami, it was quite important for me to understand the extent of the destruction, which included the damage reports of the reactor.
It was quite telling to see that mother nature is truly a force to be reckoned with, that even the best protective measures can't always cover all the potential variables of uncertainty.

But rather than focus on the truth, it was easier for people to generalize and make assumptions resulting in the outcome that occurred. This upset me more than I expected it would, but I believe a lot of that related to the arrogant youth claiming that the tsunami was retribution for pearl harbor, not realizing their own countries shameful actions that resulted in far greater numbers of death and destruction. But that's a subject not really suited for this thread.

The main focus seemed to shift from the loss of life towards the misinformation of the reactor once reports of nuclear waste was absorbed in the ground and water sources, then still getting into the ocean despite preventative measures against that too. This caused a lot of chest thumpers to complain about uranium reactors and boast about the replacement to thorium as the superior solution to what was an unfortunate and unforeseeable event. It is easy to complain when something tragic happens, but replacing all reactors to thorium as the "safe" measure seems impractical.

Fatmice wrote:

Light wrote: How critical are the oil refineries for this? I can see that sulfuric acid is required, but that's quite the scale of chemical plants and beacons being utilized for just sulfuric acid.

The sulfuric acid is minor. What is really major is the petrol gas that you will need. That setup is for consumption of 25 petrol /s max. The reason I used beacons is I had such small room to play with so I needed to make it small.

As I play with Angel's Petrochem, this process will be quite different as there's no petroleum within it. However, since the number of gasses and liquids is vastly expanded, there's sure to be the exact ingredient required. (Nitric acid, isn't it?)

In case you need it, user j02k recently made a petrochem graph outlining all the production of all the gasses and chemicals here: download/file.php?id=18366 It is currently the most up to date information.

Light wrote:
As I play with Angel's Petrochem, this process will be quite different as there's no petroleum within it. However, since the number of gasses and liquids is vastly expanded, there's sure to be the exact ingredient required. (Nitric acid, isn't it?)

In case you need it, user j02k recently made a petrochem graph outlining all the production of all the gasses and chemicals here: download/file.php?id=18366 It is currently the most up to date information.

Petrol is used to make H2 (gas).
Atmospheric distillation gives N2(gas) + O2 (gas)

H2+N2 -> NH3 (gas)
NH3 + O2 -> HNO3 + water

H2 + HNO3 -> NH2OH

H2SO4 + Stone -> H3PO4
H3PO4 + Petrol gas -> TBP

All the processes are self contained and require no additional mod. I made them without regard to any other mod as I can not expect anyone who plays with my mod also plays with another set of mods.

Having said that, I can allow the use of another mod's products but it's an either or thing. If Angel's HNO3 is used, then all recipes in mine that uses HNO3 will need to be changed. I can script this in data-updates.lua or data-final-fixes.lua. However, the details of the recipe will not change,i.e. the input and output amounts.

Fatmice wrote:

Light wrote:
As I play with Angel's Petrochem, this process will be quite different as there's no petroleum within it. However, since the number of gasses and liquids is vastly expanded, there's sure to be the exact ingredient required. (Nitric acid, isn't it?)

In case you need it, user j02k recently made a petrochem graph outlining all the production of all the gasses and chemicals here: download/file.php?id=18366 It is currently the most up to date information.

Petrol is used to make H2 (gas).
Atmospheric distillation gives N2(gas) + O2 (gas)

H2+N2 -> NH3 (gas)
NH3 + O2 -> HNO3 + water

H2 + HNO3 -> NH2OH

H2SO4 + Stone -> H3PO4
H3PO4 + Petrol gas -> TBP

All the processes are self contained and require no additional mod. I made them without regard to any other mod as I can not expect anyone who plays with my mod also plays with another set of mods.

Having said that, I can allow the use of another mod's products but it's an either or thing. If Angel's HNO3 is used, then all recipes in mine that uses HNO3 will need to be changed. I can script this in data-updates.lua or data-final-fixes.lua. However, the details of the recipe will not change,i.e. the input and output amounts.

What I mean is that crude oil becomes naphtha, mineral oil, or fuel oils. There is no petroleum cracking or petroleum in general, so another oil for Angel would be required for that mod specifically, otherwise the process won't function.

Light wrote: What I mean is that crude oil becomes naphtha, mineral oil, or fuel oils. There is no petroleum cracking or petroleum in general, so another oil for Angel would be required for that mod specifically, otherwise the process won't function.

That is an issue then as I designed it using only the base game without consideration for any other mod. Petroleum is a base-game material that should always be present. I only add things to the base game. I do not take things away as what Angel is doing, which imo is bad form.

Is there a material in Angel's that would closely resemble the concept of petroleum gas?

Fatmice wrote:

Light wrote: What I mean is that crude oil becomes naphtha, mineral oil, or fuel oils. There is no petroleum cracking or petroleum in general, so another oil for Angel would be required for that mod specifically, otherwise the process won't function.

That is an issue then as I designed it using only the base game without consideration for any other mod. Petroleum is a base-game material that should always be present. I only add things to the base game. I do not take things away as what Angel is doing, which imo is bad form.

Is there a material in Angel's that would closely resemble the concept of petroleum gas?

I wouldn't know what relates to it as closely as you would, which is why I linked the graph.
download/file.php?id=18366

The oil and gas wells are on the left side, including what they all break down or synthesize into.

If there's multiple gasses that most closely relate to it, I'll check in game to see which one is the easiest for the player to accumulate early on and in large quantities as to keep with demand. Some chains require longer steps than others and may not satisfy 25 units per second.

Light wrote: I wouldn't know what relates to it as closely as you would, which is why I linked the graph.
download/file.php?id=18366

The oil and gas wells are on the left side, including what they all break down or synthesize into.

If there's multiple gasses that most closely relate to it, I'll check in game to see which one is the easiest for the player to accumulate early on and in large quantities as to keep with demand. Some chains require longer steps than others and may not satisfy 25 units per second.

It appears synthesis gas is close to petroleum gas. I shall allow conversion of synthesis gas -> petroleum gas at 1:1 ratio.

Steady progress on the icon side

Fatmice wrote:

Light wrote: I wouldn't know what relates to it as closely as you would, which is why I linked the graph.
download/file.php?id=18366

The oil and gas wells are on the left side, including what they all break down or synthesize into.

If there's multiple gasses that most closely relate to it, I'll check in game to see which one is the easiest for the player to accumulate early on and in large quantities as to keep with demand. Some chains require longer steps than others and may not satisfy 25 units per second.

It appears synthesis gas is close to petroleum gas. I shall allow conversion of synthesis gas -> petroleum gas at 1:1 ratio.

Synthesis Gas is blue science, with various easy methods to obtain. (10 units per 2 seconds and 15 units per 4 seconds being the most efficient crafts)
This would be the best choice since a decently sized synthesis gas plant is generally a good idea for any factory as it makes almost any gas related product from it.

hey is there going to be a 0.14 release?

Yes, as you can see I am working on it.

It just need a bit more icon work and some more lua work on a rather embarrassing bug that I've not noticed for a long time. Hopefully I can finish the lua work tomorrow and do a release. I'm going to bed now.

Forgot to mention (because I forgot myself), there is a converter valve in petrochem that converts vanilla to angel and vice versa. (Such as heavy oil to naphtha)
However, petroleum doesn't convert to anything, and my tanks of almost every angel gas doesn't convert to petro either.

Angel could add synthesis -> petroleum to this valve to correct the matter.

If for some reason there's an issue with Angel's sulfuric acid, the valve does convert to vanilla sulfuric acid so that shouldn't be a problem.

Edit: Nevermind, apparently petroleum is referred to as methane gas in Angels, and sure enough methane is converted to petroleum in the converter valve, but doesn't convert back for some reason.
No wonder it threw me off.

So yeah, it should work just fine. My bad.

so there is a bug in the current version for inseting fuel rods into the reactor chest.. just wondering if maybe you found the issue

That bug is already fixed in the next version.

cool thx best atomic power mod out there