Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:45 am
States as on track to be released next week, What day is it?
Step up from green science to blue science was huge as mentioned in science changes FFF. It's even greater now because of even more oil processing needed.CDarklock wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:16 pmI honestly don't understand your complaint. I already have to set up oil processing to make blue science. The 0.17 changes just mean I am using more of my oil, and less of my iron. What, exactly, is the issue here?Avezo wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:26 pm Even if just a bit of stuggle was moved ahead from first steps of refinery stage of the game, all the rest still piles up due to red circuits alone - NOT due to easily expandable fluid tanks filling up.
I'm not sure what you mean byAvezo wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:26 pmCould you share to public playthrough of those 3 games mentioned in FFF? I can't see it being as smooth as you say. Even if just a bit of stuggle was moved ahead from first steps of refinery stage of the game, all the rest still piles up due to red circuits alone - NOT due to easily expandable fluid tanks filling up.V453000 wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:46 amYou can just make solid fuel from light oil. There is no other product that you could make from light oil, and cracking is unlocked later. Typically light oil is the one that usually deadlocks soonest without cracking as it is somewhat likely you will consume heavy for lubricant... So you are not making any extra refinery than you would need for the petroleum gas, you are just using light oil and delaying the deadlock.Avezo wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:30 pmIt is - it requires even more setting up of 'refinery' part of the factory, whereas old mining drills required just setting up more mining outposts. And you have to set up almost entire 'refinery' part from scratch at once for just blue science, whereas previously you'd be setting mining outposts gradually.5thHorseman wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:23 pmI haven't tried the mod that changes the recipes for 0.16, but is 1 solid fuel and 0.5 advanced circuits really that "much harder" than 1 electric mining drill?Avezo wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:08 pm So, during playtesting no issues were observed with much harder progressing into blue science?
I've mentioned such issues before in the first 0.17 changes FFF, but apparently mining pick whiners were more important to get a reply than me (instead of plain ban for obvious offtopic), so I'm happy you've replied here at least.
?And you have to set up almost entire 'refinery' part from scratch at once for just blue science, whereas previously you'd be setting mining outposts gradually.
The devs seem to consider that it will be easier on new players,FFF#275 (V453000) wrote:Electric mining drill replaced with Solid fuel, giving you a lot more buffer room to produce something before your refinery deadlocks when one of the three oils has no use. The player is also much more familiar with item storage compared to the newly learned fluids at this stage so it is much easier to handle the possible deadlock. In general it also means that you don't need to rush towards Advanced oil processing to unlock cracking as early, especially if you send some of your Solid fuel to burn in boilers.
FFF#275 (V453000) wrote:I have been considering to add 1x Pipe to the [Green Science] recipe to make getting to oil easier - if you have pipes automated, it’s so much simpler as you need a crazy number of them to build the refinery and even craft the items that the refinery consists of. Using it in a science pack recipe is not guaranteeing that the player will automate pipes and store them in a chest for later use, but it’s a step closer, or you can just pick up pipes from a belt if they back up and you need them. The ore price would be a little bit higher (+14%), and it would add a little more complexity in this science pack. Which might be a good thing if it makes Chemical science easier.
There are many ways how to define the step between green and blue. Complexity and resource requirements for example.Avezo wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:04 amStep up from green science to blue science was huge as mentioned in science changes FFF. It's even greater now because of even more oil processing needed.CDarklock wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:16 pmI honestly don't understand your complaint. I already have to set up oil processing to make blue science. The 0.17 changes just mean I am using more of my oil, and less of my iron. What, exactly, is the issue here?Avezo wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:26 pm Even if just a bit of stuggle was moved ahead from first steps of refinery stage of the game, all the rest still piles up due to red circuits alone - NOT due to easily expandable fluid tanks filling up.
Or space.V453000 wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:17 am There are many ways how to define the step between green and blue. Complexity and resource requirements for example.
Oh, okay.Avezo wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:04 am Step up from green science to blue science was huge as mentioned in science changes FFF. It's even greater now because of even more oil processing needed.
I see, thanks.Nova wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:48 am You probably won't get anything certain from the devs as they don't even know for themself. Highest chance are tuesday or wednesday. It won't be friday, that's for sure.
Amount of resources is not limited and therefore supplying mining drill assembler was never that big of a problem. Complexity of whole oil-plastic-red circuits-blue science is.CDarklock wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:33 amSo you would rather build an assembler to consume your limited iron with mining drills, instead of a chemical plant to supplement your limited coal with solid fuel.Avezo wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:04 am Step up from green science to blue science was huge as mentioned in science changes FFF. It's even greater now because of even more oil processing needed.
You've never mined an entire iron patch?
It replaced electric mining drills. Because you need to learn about oil now. You already know how mining drills work, it is time to step up and get on the next level. If you don't want to get on the next level, you should probably stop doing research.it should've replaced red circuits, not add ontop of them.
Solid fuel is a nice 1st recipe because it doesn't care about the flavor of oil. Any refinery output can be turned into solid fuel so there's no complicated balancing to worry about. As for red circuits I don't think it's a bad idea to push them back a bit more. After all the green science game is unbelievably HUGE. If you don't believe me then just pop open the tech tree: Nearly half (if not more) of the game's content is wrapped up in green science! Fluids, trains, combinators, fancy belts, personal modules, factory modules, vehicles. I'm not even including the beefy green+military branch which is sort of tier 2.5. So much of the game is green science it's actually crazy. It may even be overwhelming. If you did absolutely everything possible within green tier before pushing forward, you would only need blue chips and rocket parts to finish the game. I totally wouldn't be against smoothing out the tier progression for it.I think solid fuel in the recipe is a nice idea, but it should've replaced red circuits, not add ontop of them.
Maybe this is a whole different kind of problem, though: because you can do so much without blue science, you get overly comfortable with a factory that doesn't process oil. Perhaps what we actually need is for a bunch of red/green technology to start needing blue, so you have to go do the oil thing sooner, because you actually feel the pinch of not having it.bobucles wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:53 pm Nearly half (if not more) of the game's content is wrapped up in green science!
It's Sunday.lordaeron1 wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:45 am States as on track to be released next week, What day is it?
There would be not much of a point in blue science then...Avezo wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:47 pm Don't get me wrong - I think solid fuel in the recipe is a nice idea, but it should've replaced red circuits, not add ontop of them.
That's because "tier 2.5" is actually green with oil :bobucles wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:53 pm Nearly half (if not more) of the game's content is wrapped up in green science! Fluids, trains, combinators, fancy belts, personal modules, factory modules, vehicles. I'm not even including the beefy green+military branch which is sort of tier 2.5. So much of the game is green science it's actually crazy. It may even be overwhelming. If you did absolutely everything possible within green tier before pushing forward, you would only need blue chips and rocket parts to finish the game.
As you can see, if you have a factory without oil, you miss on about half of green science.CDarklock wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:34 pm Maybe this is a whole different kind of problem, though: because you can do so much without blue science, you get overly comfortable with a factory that doesn't process oil. Perhaps what we actually need is for a bunch of red/green technology to start needing blue, so you have to go do the oil thing sooner, because you actually feel the pinch of not having it.
One of the core design principles I see in the FFF posts is the idea of pushing players beyond their comfort zone, so they move forward and make progress. I know I can sit in my base derping around with stuff way longer than I should, and then when I finally sigh and go out looking for oil, I've got more evolved biters that are harder to fight. It's clearly better to go secure the oil fields earlier, but if you're able to research for sixty hours with nothing more than green science because you have only one lab grinding miserably toward the goal... you might not bother.
Please don't ! They should be available for most people, and early if they desire so, not locked behind oil !Combinators can totally be pushed into an easy blue tier.
Because spilling thousands of items on the floor is messy, but especially, bad for performance !gaelyte wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:08 pm Speaking of chests, why is their content destroyed when a chest s destroyed by a bitter ? I hardly see how they manage to destroy tousand stones with a few hits.
Nope.
I am prepared!Prepare to Launch