Factorio Forums

coffee-factorio wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2026 3:29 am
It's less that I feel like it shouldn't be rewarding. It's more that I feel like it's intended for the thing to be challenging. As for whether or not it is, it's a feature which drains more resources than benefits it provides except when optimized by other technologies. So it's part of "Coffee Paradox Circus", because unless I'm mistaken it's going to provide contradictory logic depending on when (n+u+r+e+l)/cost >= 1 (and that's before we get into discussions about how big a build and so forth, which add even more possibilities to analyze). I think it is hostile to analysis.

As for whether or not what is objectively handing someone the analytical equivalent of television static is a great idea. It's an artistic choice. But I'm not sure you can balance this system to make it seem like it isn't television static. It's very satisfying to get a result but it's an absolute nightmare to do it. I don't think you're in a minority, I think it would in fact be a sign of concern if someone liked this system without qualification.

And that's kind of pathological to how the thing operates when you really look at it.

I'd agree on WUBE having the intention of making it challenging, but I really can't wrap my head around the rewards not being worthwhile. There isn't another process I can think of where if you upgrade one aspect (Production/Speed/Efficiency for example) where the detractor can't be mitigated to some degree, or where there is no detractor in the case of better machines (Foundry & EM Plant base Prod and crafting speed for example).

mmmPI wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2026 6:51 am
I feel you ARE able to use epic and legendary reasonnably, space casino were never "mandadory" , they were mostly convenient for speedrunners or if you play very fast and you don't have the option to have the materials upgrade in quality over the course of a "regular" game lengh, you reach that point of the "late game" where "all you have left to do is quality" so you design a system whose sole purpose is to create quality from raw material. But in many other game you don't HAVE TO play like that, you can start quality earlier as mentionned on Fulgora and recycle everything that piles up, like a regular fulgora game, you will have a lot of "epic" for sure by the time you unlock legendary or even reach Aquilo, you will definitly be able to use them at least on Aquilo, i did that for robots in my first playthru because it took me time to make sure Gleba was "safe to be left unattended", i had plenty epic that i could use to counter the fact that they are less effective there.

I understand there are other methods to use and that Casinos are not mandatory for Legendary Science, and I am happy with what you pointed out previously where you can still make use of the nerfed Casino and just stockpile it, it gives me an idea for a 'freighter' ship now whose only job is to carry thousands of stacks of materials from the Casino fleet back to base.

All the same, I cannot wrap my head around Legendary Science. I went in with a 10k SPM base without any quality machines or any serious productivity upgrades, and decided to try overhaul it to 100k Legendary SPM without any Research Productivity Research. I think I got to 24k Legendary SPM on all base sciences and capped out at around 8k Legendary SPM being produced for the planet specific sciences and it was a horrible experience that took easily 100-200 hours and ballooned my base to an unpleasant degree.

I don't know how you'd balance Quality either, but I definitely don't know if WUBE intended for it to be this bad. Uncommon and Rare are great, fully worthwhile across the board to upgrade to either for Science production. Epic is a net negative, Legendary is a black-hole that doesn't pay out. I'm happy I did it overall but only so that now I can say I did it personally and can warn others away from doing it for anything other than bragging rights.

TCJM wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2026 10:53 am All the same, I cannot wrap my head around Legendary Science. I went in with a 10k SPM base without any quality machines or any serious productivity upgrades, and decided to try overhaul it to 100k Legendary SPM without any Research Productivity Research. I think I got to 24k Legendary SPM on all base sciences and capped out at around 8k Legendary SPM being produced for the planet specific sciences and it was a horrible experience that took easily 100-200 hours and ballooned my base to an unpleasant degree.

It's not clear why you still want or need legendary science with 2.1. With the new landing pad unloading bay the throughput limit of the cargo landing pad is lifted, so you're able to push by orders of magnitude more normal science than with 2.0. As far as I understand this throughput bottleneck was what made players in 2.0 switch to legendary science. All this washing and wasting items for legendary output is probably more UPS intensive than just push normal science bottles through the landing pad now with 2.1.

No demand for legendary science any more shifts the demand of a scalable "space casino": it's not important any more. Just for crafting legendary items any upcycling facility will work.

Tertius wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2026 11:14 am It's not clear why you still want or need legendary science with 2.1. With the new landing pad unloading bay the throughput limit of the cargo landing pad is lifted, so you're able to push by orders of magnitude more normal science than with 2.0. As far as I understand this throughput bottleneck was what made players in 2.0 switch to legendary science. All this washing and wasting items for legendary output is probably more UPS intensive than just push normal science bottles through the landing pad now with 2.1.

No demand for legendary science any more shifts the demand of a scalable "space casino": it's not important any more. Just for crafting legendary items any upcycling facility will work.

I suppose it's for the same reason Gleba Quality Seeds were something I wanted changed in 2.1, it feels unrefined or unfinished from my perspective. If there's a crafting recipe in the game, I feel it should at some point be rewarding or worthwhile to use it (even if it is gated behind Cryogenic or Promethium tech), and having any of these recipes or mechanics that have drawbacks that can not be mitigated or are borderline useless in regards to certain Gleba Quality recipes sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Overall the change is not something I care deeply about beyond the fact it finally spurred me into speaking about Quality as a whole. Casinos aren't really the problem I feel, it's Quality beyond Rare that are my main issue.

TCJM wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2026 9:55 pm
I suppose it's for the same reason Gleba Quality Seeds were something I wanted changed in 2.1, it feels unrefined or unfinished from my perspective. If there's a crafting recipe in the game, I feel it should at some point be rewarding or worthwhile to use it (even if it is gated behind Cryogenic or Promethium tech), and having any of these recipes or mechanics that have drawbacks that can not be mitigated or are borderline useless in regards to certain Gleba Quality recipes sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Overall the change is not something I care deeply about beyond the fact it finally spurred me into speaking about Quality as a whole. Casinos aren't really the problem I feel, it's Quality beyond Rare that are my main issue.

Well it's sounds like you had a rough time with it. As a symptom of what you're talking about, though. Did casinos make it better, worse, or is it at a point where you can't tell?

And would someone be more or less likely to pursue what you did with or without reroller casinos?

Of course this is the thread that has a billion comments on it