Factorio Forums

ssilk wrote:The problem just is, that it takes there ages to build that outpost, even if you have some wagons full of the needed stuff with you.

I wonder what do you mean by outpost then.
Character inventory is large enough to contain factory large enough to build a rocket defense.
Also, isn't the remoteness of such outpost and resulting logistic stress something you should face for going so far?

As for original theme, I've been playing quite a long game recently and after building up tenth mining outpost I've come to appreciate some of the op arguments.
The need to more or less manually adapt drill layout to a shape of specific ore field is indeed a bit of a hassle. Thought this can be solved by using drills with larger coverage area. There was a couple of mods that adds those.
As for power connections, if the outpost is really far guess it's time to build it it's own powersource. With the use of effectivity modules the excavation site can be supplied with rather modest amount of solars.
As for manual combat I could recommend Mocombat mod. It provides both the robots to fight for you as well as some more appropriate means of manual biter eradication later on.

Adil wrote: As for original theme, I've been playing quite a long game recently and after building up tenth mining outpost I've come to appreciate some of the op arguments.
The need to more or less manually adapt drill layout to a shape of specific ore field is indeed a bit of a hassle.

Would also be solvable by having a 'force-place' modifier for mines, and also for blueprints. (Hopefully the latter is on it's way soon!)

Adil wrote:

ssilk wrote:The problem just is, that it takes there ages to build that outpost, even if you have some wagons full of the needed stuff with you.

I wonder what do you mean by outpost then.
Character inventory is large enough to contain factory large enough to build a rocket defense.
Also, isn't the remoteness of such outpost and resulting logistic stress something you should face for going so far?

Oh, yes, this has been discussed along over the last months. The "outpost" is some far away mining site. Connected via rail, cause it is too far away (>500 tiles).
You need to think, that the current rocket defence is not the "end". You need much more resources, than now.

Seems like a non issue to me. Just set all resources to very high richness. They last for like 20 hours then.

Well there is often the answer : "you want it, mod it" in the forum (but it's the case for every moddable game I have played).
For me, a game should feel complete without the use of mods. That's the reason I dont agree with the systematic answer "make a mod" to whatever you feel missing in a game.
In Factorio, most part of the game is about automation. At least that's what I have felt of the "soul" of the game. Thus, whatever pushes towards giving the ability to the player to automate a process should be considered twice before discarding it.

I have played Factorio quite a few hundreds of hours, and until now, I have never expanded far away and built rail connected outposts because I feel overwhelmed by the simple idea of setting up all this complex rail / train / loading/unloading stations, ... And I find it sad, because I also feel I haven't had a complete experience of the game, I know I miss something really important.

I feel that knowing there is an ingame way to automate partially this kind of things would incline me to "dare" throw myself into building one, and see how things can be done.
And no, blueprinting is not enough automation for me, because there is no ingame way to export a blueprint for usage in future gameplays, and I don't want to spend countless hours reinventing the same layouts for blueprinting them, every new game I play. I know the game is under development, so I don't complain about the lack of all the features I'd like to see added, I'm not whining, just explaining why I think some kind of ingame mechanism to automate the setup of distant outposts would feel great to me (but only if a way is found to make things "feel right", no need to ad an absurdly unnatural or overcomplicated thing).

@Sisaroth: I think this is one of the coolest things in Factorio: This is a game (the first?), where it is possible to increase the "scale" by factor 10-100 and still keep the lowest level (scale 1) in a way, where the things are NOT simulated. The things feel for me somehow "real", when I go for outposts and increase the scale. The current game is just something, which enables that.

@Koub: Mods are the best way to try new things out. There is no way around it, some things need to be prototyped first.

And there is something between your lines, which let me think, this is wrong: Most active players in this forum (ok, I'm not sure about that, but I think this can be assumed for very much) look around how Factorio will make for them the most fun. And some of them try to bring the development into "their" direction. This is not easy, cause you need to tinker into the depth of the internals. It's the same as with a car: You need to know if it needs gasoline or diesel to stop at the right gasoline-pump.

I mean: Yes, it's complex, setting up train station is a bit complicated. The first time you do it. And perhaps the second. And I hate it also. Everybody knows, that this is not the right way to play it. Everybody would like to place a train-stop and then click on it and say "Make blueprint for this station with 4 wagons unload, use smart inserters, go". But this is an alpha game and you can not await, that it works like so. That is the job of the mods. And the players, cause this game is so open, that we really don't know, if this is the right, the best way to make it so. So there is no better way, than that we need to play it and need to tell other, how to play it in the best way. And THEN (only then) this can be auto-automated and built into the game.

BTW: There are ways to export your blueprints, there is the Foreman ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6516 ) and Blueprint String ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6742 ) mods.
And really: It is not so complicated to built rails. Just begin with a simple circle or oval and drive around a bit and then expand it. You can built rails, while driving. There are good Let's play videos, which explain that in detail. You will really say "Gosh, why didn't I've played with train before? This is fun!"

tecxx wrote:... a large scale rail placement mode without running around as a character, e.g. something similar to the way it is done in transport tycoon, would help a lot.

I agree with this one. Maybe at some point, in this game of automation, I should be able to build a command centre, sit there, and no longer have to walk around to build stuff.

I totally agree with your points, and there are plans (not official) for the (far) future to solve this issues.

vitalyb wrote:Of all the aspects in Factorio, the one I dislike the most is mining-expansion. Resources keep running out and I have to rush out and perform the same thing, over and over again:

1) Explore the area to find resources

As you said, you have radars

vitalyb wrote: 2) Fight and clear any hives on the way (when impossible to avoid)

There are going to be ways, 1 or 2 major releases in the future to do it more centralised.

vitalyb wrote: 3) Create a rail all the way to the new base

I have a plan for much alternative convenient rail placing mechanism.

vitalyb wrote: 4) Pass power via power poles

Well this is one thing I don't have plan for, but this is the less annoying I guess. But who knows what will the future bring.

vitalyb wrote: 5) Create train station
5) To create a rail station automatically I use blueprints. However, I need a construction bot in the area and a bot station, including all the resources. So I have a requester box that requests all the needed resources for an expansion base. I go there, pick all the resources, build the station, put the put and use the blueprint. Once the bots are done, I destroy the tower, take the bots, and return everything to storage for next time.

I have a plan for this as well. The blueprint usage is not far as convenient as I plan it to be in the future.
I kind of plan to have some kind of personal roboport in the armor as equipment. That way you can just use blueprints everywhere and the robots will build it from you inventory without the need for complicated setup.

vitalyb wrote: 6) Create base layout (miners, conveyors, etc)

I made a little upgrade, that the blueprint building just skips the miners that have no resources and builds the rest, but it still needs better way to do it I agree.

vitalyb wrote: It is fun to do the first 2 times, but doing it everytime your resources run out, is just repetitive and not fun.

Lets hope it gets better.

vitalyb wrote: 3. Rails and poles should be automated in a similar manner as above, however, in some kind of interface that allows you to say: Start rail here, end rail there. Factorio will build the path the best it can (if possible).

This is exactly what I have planned, togeter with the personal roboport, it should work great.

kovarex wrote:...personal roboport

Mmmm i like this

kovarex wrote:I totally agree with your points, and there are plans (not official) for the (far) future to solve this issues.
There are going to be ways, 1 or 2 major releases in the future to do it more centralised.

vitalyb wrote: 3) Create a rail all the way to the new base

I have a plan for much alternative convenient rail placing mechanism.

vitalyb wrote: 4) Pass power via power poles

Well this is one thing I don't have plan for, but this is the less annoying I guess. But who knows what will the future bring.

Electric Train Engine w/ Electric Rails.
Electric Rails could therefore expend the electrical network.

Cloner wrote:

kovarex wrote:...personal roboport

Mmmm i like this

Oh yes, me too!

A totally different approach to, not eliminate but at least reduce the need for mining base expansion, is a slight change to the terrain generator. Currently it appears that there is a maximum size for resource deposits. If the maximum were rasied to a very large value, with a correspondingly small probability, then it would be worthwhile to explore a huge area: since you would stand a good chance of finding a huge resource. You would then need to build a huge mine, train station, probably twin tracks in a loop with many trains etc.

But the payback is that this one mining outpost would last a long time.

JoeSchmoe wrote:

kovarex wrote:I totally agree with your points, and there are plans (not official) for the (far) future to solve this issues.
There are going to be ways, 1 or 2 major releases in the future to do it more centralised.

vitalyb wrote: 3) Create a rail all the way to the new base

I have a plan for much alternative convenient rail placing mechanism.

vitalyb wrote: 4) Pass power via power poles

Well this is one thing I don't have plan for, but this is the less annoying I guess. But who knows what will the future bring.

Electric Train Engine w/ Electric Rails.
Electric Rails could therefore expend the electrical network.

That's not very realistic however, as the current third rail power systems probably wouldn't be able to handle transmitting power over them for purposes other than running trains.

Graypup wrote: That's not very realistic however, as the current third rail power systems probably wouldn't be able to handle transmitting power over them for purposes other than running trains.

Realistic as in real life, or works in the game? This is a game, so realism isn't high up there. Stranded alone with nothing but some scrap iron plate, you can build a huge factory and train system...
In game Electric Rail mod works just fine for this. I recently made an outpost for oil using this mod. In fact, I ran the rail line mostly with the Rail Layer mod, and just made corrections by hand. I'd like more control of connecting to the third rail, maybe a specific power pole for tapping into it, but otherwise it works great.

Resource fields should get bigger as the distance to the starting area increases. This way you are still forced to get out and explore, but you don't get to that point where your resource usage is so big that the fields deplete faster than you can connect others. If you go really far out you should be rewarded with huge and rich fields, where building up a sophisticated outpost is worthwile.

And the personal roboport sounds great!

Oh man, can't you work a little faster? I can't wait to get back to this game with all these features included!

Bleda wrote:Resource fields should get bigger as the distance to the starting area increases. This way you are still forced to get out and explore, but you don't get to that point where your resource usage is so big that the fields deplete faster than you can connect others. If you go really far out you should be rewarded with huge and rich fields, where building up a sophisticated outpost is worthwile.

What's the point to land on the poorest site of the planet?

Bleda wrote:Resource fields should get bigger as the distance to the starting area increases.[...]

Makes sense to me. I'd like new types of minerals (needed for advanced recipes/can replace other resources in some recipes) to spawn quite some distances away from the starting area as well, to promote long distance logistics.

hitzu wrote:[…]What's the point to land on the poorest site of the planet?

Possible reasons:

• Emergency landing w/bath luck (matches current scenario)
• Enemy concentrations are too high to land in richer regions
• Poor sensors on arrival ship can't determine ore vein sizes and richness
• The only area with necessary starting resources close together don't have very rich veins

Bleda wrote:Resource fields should get bigger as the distance to the starting area increases. This way you are still forced to get out and explore, but you don't get to that point where your resource usage is so big that the fields deplete faster than you can connect others. If you go really far out you should be rewarded with huge and rich fields, where building up a sophisticated outpost is worthwile.

The way the game currently works, this is a feasible solution. A more detailed and fine grain world creation process would also improve things a lot.

My personal wish is that there will be options later on for far more sophisticated methods of exploration, expansion but additionally also ways to simply relocate an entire factory. If you've completely exhausted all the available resources in a 1000 tile radius it would be great if were reasonably simple to just pack everything you've got up and drive to some new location way way out in the wilderness and then easily set back up the factory as it was before moving.

Now, nothing is really stopping you from doing that as the game currently is, however it is mighty inconvenient to do so. Between all the trees and biters blocking your path, the infeasability of transporting liquids or 1 time shipments of massive quantities of materials, and that one poorly placed tile of water blocking you from putting down the massive multi-screen sized blueprint of your entire factory down in your otherwise perfect dream location, it would probably be the most tedious thing you could possibly do in the game.

The nice thing about not being able to move your entire factory so easily is that you get a reason to build a nice and big transportation network. If you could just pack everything and move to the next location, you will never have a reason to build train lines. think about it

I like the idea of coal, iron and copper becoming like oil in that the speed of extraction decreases over time. I hate how mining expansions just become useless eventually, it means I don't really feel like developing them properly as I know I just have to disassemble them in a few hours. If the expansion would still send out the occasional resource train even after the fields were depleted, I would fortify and develop it properly.

For me though, the biggest frustration in Factorio remains the combat. I just don't enjoy it at all. I think it should be possible to automate it. I'd like it if the factory could automatically build & deploy autonomous military robots that head towards the nearest enemy base and attack it - sort of like how the aliens work, but in reverse. If the factory was building at a fast enough rate, the alien bases would be destroyed without direct player intervention.