Factorio Forums

mooklepticon wrote:

Tepalus wrote:Laser turrets still spike my main grid. I need more petroleum for batteries!!! (Or copper mining needs to give sulfur! Copper sulfide, anyone?)

Could try using hot water storage instead. Set up some extra steam engines connected at the back of your main ones via some tanks. when steamies are running under max capacity the tanks will fill up with hot water, and then when your grid spikes, the steam engines at the back will draw hot water from the tanks instead. I've not tried it myself but apparantly it's a good alternative if you can't afford accumulators.

I am going to try a variation of this on my new world, by putting the extra steam engines on a seperate grid that powers the laser turrets only. What I'm hoping is that then when my laser turrets aren't firing at all, the backup engines will switch off completely and the tanks will fill up faster. Then I can roll out laser turrets faster because I can use all my batteries for laser turrets

Tepalus wrote:But has anyone ever tryed to separate laserturrets from the main power?

So you run all your laser turrets on steamengines, which can handle them better and the rest of your factory you run on solar panels and accumulators? Because your main factory don't use the energy differently, you can balance it with solar panels.

That's a really good idea! I've seen other people say they like this idea too so I think I'll try this now.

ok, I made the switch.
I set up a bunch of assemblers and mass produced Solar Panels and Accumulators.

My factory now has 2,880 Solar Panels for daytime power and 4,800 Accumulators for night time power.
Total capacity, 174MW from solar and 24GJ backup.

As I understand it, Laser Turrets are priority 1 on energy draw, everything else will yield power to the Laser Turrets if they want to fire.

Laser Turrets only need to fire if there is an enemy within range.

Laser Turrets that don't fire on an in-range enemy are about to become very expensive Biter food.

Why would you want to override that behavior and restrict the energy grid that the Laser Turrets draw from?

If anything, I think you'd want some way to "reroute all power" so that the only thing that stays powered besides the Laser Turrets is whatever is feeding the main power system its fuel, be it coal, solid fuel from oil processing or whatever. Let the rest of the factory come to a grinding halt, we have Biters incoming!

What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

byronczimmer wrote:Let the rest of the factory come to a grinding halt, we have Biters incoming!

What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

....because letting the rest of the factory grind to a halt is not acceptable for some

byronczimmer wrote:What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

Yes the power does get rerouted when all on same grid, but with main factory on solar and lasers on steam they're always online 24/7 with max energy. The rest of the factory may run out of accumulator energy but lasers are still running at 100%

Griffon0129 wrote:

byronczimmer wrote:What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

Yes the power does get rerouted when all on same grid, but with main factory on solar and lasers on steam they're always online 24/7 with max energy. The rest of the factory may run out of accumulator energy but lasers are still running at 100%

Given:
Power grid "A" (Solar) powering the Factory at 100%
and
Power grid "B" (Steam) powering the Lasers at 100%

Wouldn't Powergrid "C" (combined grids A + B) fully power everything?

MalcolmCooks wrote:

byronczimmer wrote:Let the rest of the factory come to a grinding halt, we have Biters incoming!

What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

....because letting the rest of the factory grind to a halt is not acceptable for some

If the factory is still running while the lasers are @ peak, wouldn't that mean that grids "A" and "B" combined would also be sufficient?

aka: "A" + "B" = "C"


So again, what is the benefit of separated power systems?

Besides just the interest of creating and completing a challenge?
With steam, then it becomes easier to see when you need to increase your power production
If you have enough generators to handle the peaks from laser turrets, then remember that the load is always distributed evenly between all your steam engines, even if in your head some of them are designated as backup generators. As you expand your factory you will reach a point where your power production is not enough to handle peak demand, but you can't tell (without working it out) until you actually get attacked and your factory grinds to a halt. Seperate systems is a way that the "backup" generators actually remain switched off when they are not needed by the laser turrets.

byronczimmer wrote:So again, what is the benefit of separated power systems?

A lot of things are just personal preference.

Is there a benefit to me stockpiling hundreds of thousands of iron and copper ore? no.
I could just mine the stuff as needed and let it stay backed up until used.
But, I don't like seeing backed up conveyors, etc

I am a purest and run only Steam, because I like playing in the mindset of a 1900's industrialist; Biters are the "Greenies" and they are my enemy! LOL

Due to my game play preferences involving alot of trains, logic networks and attempts to reduce temporary infrastructure (a large percentage of my initial base will still be used during end-game)
ie
the factory that produces my first car will construct all my cars for the entire game
all but my first lab that researches automation, my labs will not move.
I will upgrade stone furnaces to steel ones because I will use the old furnaces to create boilers, but not upgrade steel furnaces to electric ones and only use electric furnaces in installations built after the research.
Some parts of my initial base may remain derelict until a suitable spot for a train-station and re-purpose is found.
I generally will only mass demolish mines, but leave their defensive structures and train stations intact, as these areas will provide proven safe spots to build higher tier tech.

Probably the main reason that I don't go the path of mass Solar Panels and Accumulators is because of the settings that I play on!
As going green results in a less than satisfactory biter development.

Although I so find having a solar panel or two on hand is often very handy while setting up inserters at outlying mine train-stations prior to your sparky laying the main power line

My settings
Map Generator:
Terrain segmentation: Normal
Water: Medium
Iron Ore: Low/Big/Good
Copper Ore: Very Low/Big/Good
Stone: Medium/Normal/Good
Coal: Very Low/Big/Good
Crude Oil: Very Low/Medium/Very good
Enemy bases: High/Medium/Regular
Starting area: Very Big

Peaceful mode: OFF

Evolution:
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.time_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.time_factor * 0
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.pollution_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.pollution_factor * 2
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.destroy_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.destroy_factor * -0.2

byronczimmer wrote:

Griffon0129 wrote:

byronczimmer wrote:What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

Yes the power does get rerouted when all on same grid, but with main factory on solar and lasers on steam they're always online 24/7 with max energy. The rest of the factory may run out of accumulator energy but lasers are still running at 100%

Given:
Power grid "A" (Solar) powering the Factory at 100%
and
Power grid "B" (Steam) powering the Lasers at 100%

Wouldn't Powergrid "C" (combined grids A + B) fully power everything?

MalcolmCooks wrote:

byronczimmer wrote:Let the rest of the factory come to a grinding halt, we have Biters incoming!

What am I missing here? Why do we want a "separate" energy grid dedicated to the Lasers?

....because letting the rest of the factory grind to a halt is not acceptable for some

If the factory is still running while the lasers are @ peak, wouldn't that mean that grids "A" and "B" combined would also be sufficient?

aka: "A" + "B" = "C"


So again, what is the benefit of separated power systems?

I think the simple answer to your question lies with the order in which the networks will draw power
1. Solar Panels
2. Steam Engines
3. Accumulators

in the A B setup the Laser turrets will draw all of their power from the steam engines and the factory will draw no power from the steam engines.
Hence you will only burn fuel during bitter attacks and can simply balance Solar Panels:Accumulators in an optimal ratio based on your factory's needs.

in the C setup the Laser turrets and the factory will use the steam engines as their secondary power source.
Hence you will be burning fuel every night and only use Accumulators once steam engine output capacity is reached

In this case A B is greater than A+B=C because you get more use out of your Accumulators for running your factory and laser turrets have no effect on your factories power.

tehroach wrote: /c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.time_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.time_factor * 0
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.pollution_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.pollution_factor * 2
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.destroy_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.destroy_factor * -0.2

Does that mean destroying spawners sets back evolution?

Almost no-one LIKES solar power/accumulators. We just use it because its so overpowered compared to the pollution and fuel-using steam alternative.

BlakeMW wrote:

MeduSalem wrote:Solid Fuel+Steam it is for me.
...

All of the items above have Efficiency Module 2's inside them to decrease the energy overhead during the refining processes.

I'm also a fan of solid fuel. But technically I think productivity modules give a much greater benefit than efficiency modules, I'm sure someone has calculated this somewhere already, but I couldn't find it.

[Calculation]

So I think with optimal usage of prod3 modules in refinery and chemical plants you can get almost 40% more net energy than with efficiency modules, or perhaps 30% if you're running purely on solid-fuel based steam power. Efficiency modules are still great to use in other machines if you want to improve your energy balance, but the argument in favor of productivity modules in oil refining line is very compelling.

Quite interesting... You encourage me to do some calculations of my own on the matter... I always thought using Efficiency Modules is already the best approach to minize Energy Consumption in relation to Energy Production when it comes to Solid Fuel production.

Altough I will probably have to experiment around finding a Beacon Setup if it is really reliable.

byronczimmer wrote:So again, what is the benefit of separated power systems?

I can only think of one word: Reliability

Basically I am using following tiered Electric Network Scheme to ensure safety:
Generally I have 3 seperated Electric Networks:

1. Electric Network I: Powers the entire Oil Production cycle beginning from the Pump Jacks to the final delivery of Solid Fuel to the Boilers. I use a small array of 10-20 Steam Enginges (Small Plant) to power this Network. The belt network transporting the Solid Fuel delivers first to the Boilers in the Small Plant and the excess gets handed through to the Big Plant. This ensures Solid Fuel production is self-sustaining.
2. Electric Network II: Basically Stores all the Energy produced by my 480 Steam Engines (Big Plant) and optionally Solar Panels into Accumulators, but also provides Power Priority to ALL my Laser Turrets (including Outposts). The Turrets take priority over the Accumulators in consumption so if the Turrets start to fire they will use all the Power of both Steam/Solar and if it is not enough they will also take Energy from the Accumulators. Like I wrote earlier in this thread I rarely to never use Solar Panels because they are boring so it's just in the diagram for the sake of completeness.
3. Electric Network III: Basically the Factory and the Mining Outposts. They are located behind the Accumulators. So basically the Factory/Outposts only get energy when the Power Plants have enough energy to fill the Accumulators, which means when the Laser Turrets put heavy drain on the Power Plant + Accumulators the Factory + Outposts will automatically slow down or grind to a halt until the Accumulators can recover.

I do it that way because Defense outweighs Continuous Production in importance. Wouldn't want a destroyed perimeter just because of item greed.

MalcolmCooks wrote:

mooklepticon wrote:

Tepalus wrote:Laser turrets still spike my main grid. I need more petroleum for batteries!!! (Or copper mining needs to give sulfur! Copper sulfide, anyone?)

Could try using hot water storage instead. Set up some extra steam engines connected at the back of your main ones via some tanks. when steamies are running under max capacity the tanks will fill up with hot water, and then when your grid spikes, the steam engines at the back will draw hot water from the tanks instead. I've not tried it myself but apparantly it's a good alternative if you can't afford accumulators.

I didn't think you could store hot water! Awesome, thanks.

MeduSalem wrote:I do it that way because Defense outweighs Continuous Production in importance. Wouldn't want a destroyed perimeter just because of item greed.

Well written and reasoned, and agrees with my basic belief that "dead biter" and "slow/no production" far outweighs "live biter eating my stuff up" and "maximum production".

I take from this that it is valuable to separate electric networks in subsystems that can produce power and then "siphon" off the excess to the rest of the system.

I will add this point as no one has put it up.
if you are going to use Solid fuel use the Steel Furnace NOT the Electric Furnace. if you add 100 to 300 Basic accumulator and add buffer to the fuel line it works well for me
have a look at this map I have 230 Steam engine 500 Basic accumulator.
have fun

Lee_newsum wrote:I will add this point as no one has put it up.
if you are going to use Solid fuel use the Steel Furnace NOT the Electric Furnace.

If you use eff1 modules the Electric Furnace should come out ahead, both furnaces use 180kW, because boilers are only 50% efficient the Electric Furnace uses 360kW of fuel, but if you use 2x eff1 module the energy use is reduced by 60% which comes to 144kW - it's not a huge benefit, unless you care about the pollution. The Steel Furnace creates 3.6 pollution, the Electric Furnace with 2x eff1 module creates 0.36 pollution directly, and 1.11 from steam power = 1.47 pollution (it actually creates more pollution without the eff1 modules - 3.68 to be precise).

So the steam power usage comes to:
Steel: 180kW of fuel, 3.6 pollution
Electric eff1: 144kW of fuel, 1.47 pollution (Steam)

Now, just looking at those numbers they aren't that impressive for all the added cost of an Electric Furnace + 2xeff1 modules, BUT, the Electric Furnace doesn't require a direct fuel supply which is a pretty big advantage as the factory becomes larger. Although I have at times used logistic bots to deliver solid fuel to steel furnace smelting lines which have ran out of their initial coal (or had their coal diverted to plastics), solid fuel is suitable for delivery by bot even early on because it is consumed so slowly.

BlakeMW wrote:

tehroach wrote: /c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.time_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.time_factor * 0
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.pollution_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.pollution_factor * 2
/c game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.destroy_factor = game.map_settings.enemy_evolution.destroy_factor * -0.2

Does that mean destroying spawners sets back evolution?

Yes it does
IMO destroying bitter installations should set them back for a while, NOT advance them.


Note: I would highly recommend these setting for:
People that want a more relaxed game of Factorio, but find Peaceful mode boring!

or

Our preference for play
which involve a lot of time where my friends and I "redneck rampage" the biter bases in our utes (ie cars, grenades and teir 2 armor only) as we will purposefully engage the enemy underrepresented.
This simple self retardation turn the often "lack-luster" combat of Factorio into "Chaos", which prolongs the combat experience and is a lot of fun.

We often refer to the cars in our game of Factorio as Fords, because of the joke, "The acronym for FORD backwards is Driver Returns On Foot" and player death is common place in our game, giving rise for the need to automate production of flak vests and small arms.

When you basically can't kill Big Worms the the short term process of dealing with bitter bases becomes a much more tactical experience, as you must divide and conquer,
attack weak spots and avoid the range of Big Worms.
As not paying attention and straying too close, often results in the player entering "on foot" mode,
encountering a Medium sized biter in this state can be scary but big ones are just a death sentence, unless your friends intervene and allow for your escape.

The long-term results of this madness, shift paradigms and give rise to some interesting side-effects.
*Old bitter bases that you were able to get to spawners without entering big worm range yield "No Go zones", which end up being dotted through-out your base.
*In the cases where there are too many big worms (or the random gen has strategically placed the big worms), you simply must leave the spawners alone,
"Bitter Sanctuaries" are created, which results in a shifting of the paradigm of wall usage from, walling in your base to walling in bitter bases.
*These "Wildlife Sanctuaries" further add and additional resource sinks for your Factorio economy.

We tend to opt for defending these Wildlife Sanctuaries with machine gun turrets as they consume all three types of ore and can be built closer, without killing the worms and spawners.

BlakeMW wrote:If you use eff1 modules the Electric Furnace should come out ahead, both furnaces use 180kW, because boilers are only 50% efficient the Electric Furnace uses 360kW of fuel, but if you use 2x eff1 module the energy use is reduced by 60% which comes to 144kW - it's not a huge benefit, unless you care about the pollution. The Steel Furnace creates 3.6 pollution, the Electric Furnace with 2x eff1 module creates 0.36 pollution directly, and 1.11 from steam power = 1.47 pollution (it actually creates more pollution without the eff1 modules - 3.68 to be precise)..

The lower cap is 20%. With 2 Efficiency Module 2's an Electric Furnace needs only 180kW * 20% = 36kW. With Boilers losing half the energy efficiency you are then back up to 72kW per Electric Furnace.

So Electric Furnaces are far better than Steel Furnaces.

The only advantage Steel furnaces have is that they are only 2x2, meaning you get roughly 1.5 as many Steel Furnaces into the same space as you would get Electric Furnaces. But since space is basically infinite you are not really forced to make the furnace setup so compact.



I tend to use Electric furnaces though together with Beacons:

In my Electric Furnaces there are currently Productivity Module 3s, though Speed Module 3s are also fine if one wants an even more compact smelting setup.
In my Beacons I use Speed Module 3s when I need the performance and I switch to Efficiency Module 3s when I don't need the performance to save energy.

To achieve the Module switching I am using Smart Inserters connected to a circuit network:

1. Average to High Usage Scenario (Storage runs low): A smart Inserter takes the Efficiency Module 3's out of the beacon and another Smart Inserter inserts Speed Module 3s into the Beacon
2. Low to Average Usage Scenario (Storage runs full): A smart inserter takes the Speed Module 3's out of the Beacon and another Smart Inserter inserts Efficiency Module 3s into the Beacon
3. Zero Usage Scenario (Storage is full): A smart inserter takes the Efficiency Module 3's out of the Beacon and no inserter puts anything into the Beacon, which basically shuts down the Beacon and removes the idle Beacon energy usage.

Sadly the inserters require some space too... I wish one could set Filters for the Smart Inserter from the Circuit network. Would make things a lot easier. I guess I might show the contraption in the "Show your creations" board later on... xD

BlakeMW wrote:

Lee_newsum wrote:I will add this point as no one has put it up.
if you are going to use Solid fuel use the Steel Furnace NOT the Electric Furnace.

If you use eff1 modules the Electric Furnace should come out ahead, both furnaces use 180kW, because boilers are only 50% efficient the Electric Furnace uses 360kW of fuel, but if you use 2x eff1 module the energy use is reduced by 60% which comes to 144kW - it's not a huge benefit, unless you care about the pollution. The Steel Furnace creates 3.6 pollution, the Electric Furnace with 2x eff1 module creates 0.36 pollution directly, and 1.11 from steam power = 1.47 pollution (it actually creates more pollution without the eff1 modules - 3.68 to be precise).

So the steam power usage comes to:
Steel: 180kW of fuel, 3.6 pollution
Electric eff1: 144kW of fuel, 1.47 pollution (Steam)

Now, just looking at those numbers they aren't that impressive for all the added cost of an Electric Furnace + 2xeff1 modules, BUT, the Electric Furnace doesn't require a direct fuel supply which is a pretty big advantage as the factory becomes larger. Although I have at times used logistic bots to deliver solid fuel to steel furnace smelting lines which have ran out of their initial coal (or had their coal diverted to plastics), solid fuel is suitable for delivery by bot even early on because it is consumed so slowly.

in the power fun Electric Furnace win but with 100+ of them are running you have to power them from some were, adding "Steam engine" to do that is a lot power. and if you can fit all the Offshore Pump in Water.