[MOD 1.1] Xander Mod v3.6.1

Topics and discussion about specific mods
User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

jodokus31 wrote:I absolutely support this. Maybe you should add a short explanation to the mod description, what's the philosophy. So people dont think its a bug or balancing issue like i initially thought.
I'll definitely have to add more detail about the play style to the main post at some point, since I've put so much thought into it.
jodokus31 wrote: Yeah, its really interesting. If it changes later, then its nice for me. I dont see the whole picture, only messing around in the early game without any clue, what will happen :)
There's a lot of progression here, can be very confusing and overwhelming. All the more reason for more conceptual description. For instance, the burner age is supposed to be just increasing your technology to the point where you have the machines to do things the right way.
jodokus31 wrote: If coke can be produced later without coal, then the problem is maybe not so severe. Add more coal to ore generation would definitly help. And 4 coke per coal is a also a huge buff.
4 coke per coal is only a factor of 2 buff. I don't know if you noticed but it is 2 coal for 1 coke (minus the smelting cost, which is 1 coke/charcoal and 4 coal in for 8 coke out) in the current version.

Updated Fuel Progression -
So my mind came through and generated some more inspiration for the fuel/carbon progression:
  • 1. bootstrap charcoal (very short compared to the whole game)
    2. Early game to early-mid game: coke from coal
    3. Late mid-game: recycle the carbon from coke used in smelting, because where coke goes in flue gas (purified to CO2) comes out. I will have to test and balance a lot to make sure this is practical, because I only just remembered that it existed. New coal/natural gas/oil mining only needed for making circuit parts, and a larger working inventory of carbon in your industrial cycle. Also maybe for some small things where I forgot to or couldn't make it possible to cycle the carbon.
    4. Continue (re-)cycling carbon, can now extract more from the air instead of mining, if you want. This enables recycling the carbon fuel used in trains, since I don't have the ability to add electric trains. I really want those, but it turns out to be quite difficult, and many people are already working on it, so I'll leave the electric trains to other mods. Unless I can figure out how to do it, in the future.
Fuel Changes -
  • - Implement the 4x increase for coal, factor of 2 increase for richness and energy value. Unfortunately only a lot of play testing will determine if this is enough to get to the point where you can start cycling carbon. I have a hunch it will, but that could be wrong as easily as right
    - Verify that coke cycling is practical and accessible enough
    - Implement the solid fuel increases from above, at least for now, because my gut feeling approves. Mostly for the sake of trains, solid fuel is no good for electric furnace refining.
    - Verify that wood can be replaced in a timely manner.
Overall, this is mid-game stuff we're starting to get into, so it will take a bunch longer to test. Therefore I am going to go with these changes as preliminary for now, and we'll see later if they fit well. Development will probably be continuous.

User avatar
betalos
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:57 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by betalos »

Nice mod you developed there. I can see the love for detail.
So I might be wrong, but I think there's something wrong with the brass plates. Probably an early recipe for brass plates is missing. :roll:

When I have a look into the tech tree the only recipe to get brass plates is in the "Leaded Brass" technology.
But to get it you need "Zin Refining", which requires "Mine Blasting", which rquireds Science Pack 3 ... made of Improved Electronix Circuit ... made of Brass Plates :shock: ... which you don't have at that point.

User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

betalos wrote:Nice mod you developed there. I can see the love for detail.
So I might be wrong, but I think there's something wrong with the brass plates. Probably an early recipe for brass plates is missing. :roll:

When I have a look into the tech tree the only recipe to get brass plates is in the "Leaded Brass" technology.
But to get it you need "Zin Refining", which requires "Mine Blasting", which rquireds Science Pack 3 ... made of Improved Electronix Circuit ... made of Brass Plates :shock: ... which you don't have at that point.
I just found this problem too as I was playing literally 5 minutes ago, then I log onto the forums and see you've beat me to it by 4 hours :lol:

This is part of a bigger cluster of problems with basic circuits and the assembling machine 1, that I aim to fix for the next release, since I still have some time before I want to get it out. I just discovered this stuff, though, so my mind needs some time to process everything. But then when I'm not looking, it will just dump out a solution and I have to write it down real fast before I forget! :roll:

Ratzap
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:15 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Ratzap »

Repofme1 wrote: I just found this problem too as I was playing literally 5 minutes ago, then I log onto the forums and see you've beat me to it by 4 hours :lol:

This is part of a bigger cluster of problems with basic circuits and the assembling machine 1, that I aim to fix for the next release, since I still have some time before I want to get it out. I just discovered this stuff, though, so my mind needs some time to process everything. But then when I'm not looking, it will just dump out a solution and I have to write it down real fast before I forget! :roll:
You could save yourself some hassle if you post a note (or update the OP) saying "Up to <ABC> is working and can be tested. Please do not post issues after that point".

We can test up to what should be working and save you the time waste of replying to things you haven't done yet.

User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

Ratzap wrote: You could save yourself some hassle if you post a note (or update the OP) saying "Up to <ABC> is working and can be tested. Please do not post issues after that point".

We can test up to what should be working and save you the time waste of replying to things you haven't done yet.
Great suggestion! I will have to start doing this. It also saves you all a bunch of time and effort on beating your heads against broken stuff. :mrgreen: Wasting your time is something I want to avoid too - I did make this mod after all, so I feel responsible for what goes into it.

orzelek
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3911
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by orzelek »

I have a question:
Am I assuming correctly that this mod will not work nicely with bob's or angels set?

Ratzap
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:15 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Ratzap »

orzelek wrote:I have a question:
Am I assuming correctly that this mod will not work nicely with bob's or angels set?
Hehe. I was expecting one of the usual Russians to appear asking that but it's you instead ;)

orzelek
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3911
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by orzelek »

Ratzap wrote:
orzelek wrote:I have a question:
Am I assuming correctly that this mod will not work nicely with bob's or angels set?
Hehe. I was expecting one of the usual Russians to appear asking that but it's you instead ;)
I'm planing a new run and looking for stuff to play with ;)

Gotten slightly discouraged at info about grind at start but seems to be fixed now. Might also need to get new RSO profile out first since it seems that this mod adds new resources.

Edit:
New RSO released with new resource config for this mod.

@Repofme1
If you can please take a look and let me know if resource distribution looks ok.
You can tweak it and post me the config. If you have questions how stuff works info can be found in vanilla config files or ask me here.

Swapping copper and iron ore colors... thats a confusing one :D
As for my above question about compatibility - for sure don't try to mix with bob's or angels - might cause lots of issues.

Ratzap
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:15 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Ratzap »

Ah, good man. I was kind of hoping you'd get it working with RSO.

For now though, all the grey science stuff should be fine but you might want to stop there as he's still working on the bits after that.

As for the ore colours, if you look for images you'll find that those ones are closer to the real thing. Factorio colours the ores with the pure metal type colours.

orzelek
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3911
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by orzelek »

Hmm so there is nothing after that?
It seems for me that there are quite few techs further on red/green stuff and more.


One word of warning - this mod is extremely unfriendly towards research multiplier. Main reasons are:
1. Tons of research needed before you can automate production of science packs.
2. Extreme costs of transport belts compared to vanilla - and point 1 means no automating production of them either. There also seem to be two recipes for transport belt - one with wrought iron other with steel - bug perhaps?
3. Might be covered later but you'll need to hack tons of wood due to charcoal. Part of this might be the fact that I used tech multiplier 5.

One usability note - please make it clear in charcoal description that it's a chemical fuel. Gotta guess it without that :D

User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

Hi all -
Wow, a lot happened last night! I was trying to figure out the problems with the circuit and assembling machine level 1, because I got bored of hand crafting science packs in my test world. And if I got bored, that usually means most people already did a while ago :( But this is a bit like art, inspiration can be very elusive at times, and I wasn't making any progress so I went to bed early.
orzelek wrote: New RSO released with new resource config for this mod.

@Repofme1
If you can please take a look and let me know if resource distribution looks ok.
You can tweak it and post me the config. If you have questions how stuff works info can be found in vanilla config files or ask me here.
But then... A surprise RSO config appeared! :o I was planning to make one for the next update and upload it for people to manually patch in (and send to you), but I see you already did. I will certainly take a quick look at it just to check, but the nice custom config I'm going to write will probably have to wait a bit longer. I wrote one a while ago that I really loved, for a super early edition of the mod that I never published, so I'll be trying to recreate that. I should do alright, since I spent a lot of time exploring your configs back then, so I should know things fairly well. I'll still ask if I can't figure something out, of course.

User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

About Bob/Angels -
Ratzap wrote:
orzelek wrote:I have a question:
Am I assuming correctly that this mod will not work nicely with bob's or angels set?
Hehe. I was expecting one of the usual Russians to appear asking that but it's you instead ;)
orzelek wrote: As for my above question about compatibility - for sure don't try to mix with bob's or angels - might cause lots of issues.
Based on the massive extent of Bob's, Angel's, and XM, and the degree of overlap, you would not have a good time. I expect the resulting horde of errors, bugs, and just plain broken stuff, would challenge Satan himself :evil:
Honestly I'm not sure if XM will ever work with the other two, since our styles are so different. If I were to write a compatibility patch, it would be as large as any of the complete mods, and most likely overwrite Bob's/Angel's beyond recognition. I can tell those two authors already have their own very distinct styles, and probably a lot of internal mental concepts that they use for design. I know I do - will have to write them in the OP, that's on the agenda for today. Ore colors & composition, fuel chemistry, materials progression (iron -> steel), and that sort of stuff is exactly what I mean to include :D

Actual Games/Playthroughs -
orzelek wrote:I'm planing a new run and looking for stuff to play with ;)
Ratzap wrote:For now though, all the grey science stuff should be fine but you might want to stop there as he's still working on the bits after that.
Thank you for the consideration! I would love for people to play, but...
I would wait at least a few weeks to a month to try out Xander Mod for a serious world. The next update even at my most optimistic projection will only just reach the electric furnaces, and not even the assembling machine 2. I will be posting a note on "it's good up to here" when things are finalized. Also, there is indeed a lot of stuff to be had after the burner era, but its currently inaccessible due to burner bootstrapping problems, and even in the advanced stuff there are probably a lot of fractures.
I also want to add one or two recommended companion mods to the OP, but this is yet another task on my extremely busy list.

User avatar
jodokus31
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by jodokus31 »

orzelek wrote: New RSO released with new resource config for this mod.
Thanks a lot. I'm looking forward to try it.
orzelek wrote: One word of warning - this mod is extremely unfriendly towards research multiplier. Main reasons are:
1. Tons of research needed before you can automate production of science packs.
2. Extreme costs of transport belts compared to vanilla - and point 1 means no automating production of them either. There also seem to be two recipes for transport belt - one with wrought iron other with steel - bug perhaps?
3. Might be covered later but you'll need to hack tons of wood due to charcoal. Part of this might be the fact that I used tech multiplier 5.
I assume, that the expensive recipes and tech multiplier > 1 are making this a marathon². I'm sure that I'm going to play only without it, at least at first.
Repofme1 wrote: Based on the massive extent of Bob's, Angel's, and XM, and the degree of overlap, you would not have a good time. I expect the resulting horde of errors, bugs, and just plain broken stuff, would challenge Satan himself :evil:
Honestly I'm not sure if XM will ever work with the other two, since our styles are so different. If I were to write a compatibility patch, it would be as large as any of the complete mods, and most likely overwrite Bob's/Angel's beyond recognition. I can tell those two authors already have their own very distinct styles, and probably a lot of internal mental concepts that they use for design.

...

I also want to add one or two recommended companion mods to the OP, but this is yet another task on my extremely busy list.
And I'm sure, I won't try it with bobs and angels soon.
I tested already with some mods, like "Picker Extended" (which adds very much QoL stuff), "Helmod", "What's is it used for", "AutoFill", "Logistic Train Network", "Nanobots", "HandcraftCounter", "EvoGUI":
-> AutoFill doesnt help to fill furnaces, burner inserters, etc. with fuel. (This might be caused by the fuel categories.)
-> Helmod, WIIUF and EvoGUI works just like expected (I didnt expect any incompatiblity)
-> LTN and Nanobots should also work, as they invent they own items based on the given base game items (although LTN uses advanced circuits it will take a long time to get there)
-> Handcraftcounter shows ~2.600 items by now. I am close before the machine tool, which is able to craft items up to 2 ingredients.
orzelek wrote:Hmm so there is nothing after that?
Ratzap wrote:For now though, all the grey science stuff should be fine but you might want to stop there as he's still working on the bits after that.
You can get a bit further, research electricity, smelt glass for power poles, setup a steam engine and research steel. But it doesnt make much sense, because the steel-plate cannot be smelted due to above mentioned bug

User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

jodokus31 wrote: I assume, that the expensive recipes and tech multiplier > 1 are making this a marathon². I'm sure that I'm going to play only without it, at least at first.
Indeed a marathon squared! :D Xander Mod features built-in increases in science costs, not by a factor of 5 but probably 2-3 overall considering the larger size of the tech tree. I didn't even know that the science multiplier mod existed, although I guess it makes sense for a more challenging game. I think it would be difficult to integrate with XM, because my mod covers such a wide range of the tech progression, literally from the ground up to rockets. The problem is that you need cheap science early on in order to research automation, but once you get things running a multiplier would no longer make things such an impossible drag. The breaking point is probably subjective and different for everyone, so you would have to keep the config multiplier on 1 to start and turn it up later. If that's possible after starting a world, idk.

User avatar
Repofme1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:22 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Repofme1 »

Starting Guide -

I added a section to the OP, for a sort of guide that I wrote for the startup. It's not *super* extensive, but it is basically solid hints on how to do stuff early on, with a few of my overall design principles. I styled it as a story for fun :P , let me know if that makes things unclear.

User avatar
jodokus31
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by jodokus31 »

Repofme1 wrote:Starting Guide -

I added a section to the OP, for a sort of guide that I wrote for the startup. It's not *super* extensive, but it is basically solid hints on how to do stuff early on, with a few of my overall design principles. I styled it as a story for fun :P , let me know if that makes things unclear.
That's really a nice story-telling, like the beginning of a novel for people with an affinity for chemistry. And it describes the mood of a scientist who knows how to do something, but is very limited without the proper materials. So he is wondering, how to bootstrap a proper production.

Since there are some hints in the story, it may help some people to get in the right mood for it. I doubt, that i will avoid the questions about unfamiliarities compared to vanilla.

Ratzap
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:15 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Ratzap »

jodokus31 wrote: That's really a nice story-telling, like the beginning of a novel for people with an affinity for chemistry. And it describes the mood of a scientist who knows how to do something, but is very limited without the proper materials. So he is wondering, how to bootstrap a proper production.

Since there are some hints in the story, it may help some people to get in the right mood for it. I doubt, that i will avoid the questions about unfamiliarities compared to vanilla.
The old cynic in my says "You may be expecting too much. People are lazy and posting is quicker than reading" but we can hope.

orzelek
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3911
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:20 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by orzelek »

Science multiplier is not a mod - it's a setting on new map dialog in advanced options :D

And having some crude burning assembly machine would be really good to make science packs early on.

For me the belts are the biggest problem. Their cost prevents you from doing early automation by getting miners on all the relevant patches and belting ore to central processing place to make science packs. Or at least smelting all the stuff and making direct materials for science packs to craft them in hand. Maybe some early slower belt craftable from iron only without bearings?

Fact that chemical fuel needs wood to make and uses a lot of energy at that is also a bit problematic but could be solved by using greenhouse mod most likely.

Ratzap
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:15 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by Ratzap »

I think what the author is trying to get at though is that those are design decisions, not bugs or balance problems to solve. He wants the early phase to be mostly beltless and he wants some degree of manual tree cutting. Making belts cheaper, slower low tech belts or greenhouses would make the mod like most/all of the other big overhaul mods. Maybe a good thing, maybe not.

User avatar
jodokus31
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.0.0

Post by jodokus31 »

orzelek wrote:Science multiplier is not a mod - it's a setting on new map dialog in advanced options :D

And having some crude burning assembly machine would be really good to make science packs early on.

For me the belts are the biggest problem. Their cost prevents you from doing early automation by getting miners on all the relevant patches and belting ore to central processing place to make science packs. Or at least smelting all the stuff and making direct materials for science packs to craft them in hand. Maybe some early slower belt craftable from iron only without bearings?

Fact that chemical fuel needs wood to make and uses a lot of energy at that is also a bit problematic but could be solved by using greenhouse mod most likely.
There is the burner machine tool after "not so much" science, which can be achieved after about 2-3 h on normal tech multiplier. it needs steel, so i had not the ability to test it. And i think, belts are not really affordable until that. And its really much faster than the inital version.
The issue with tree chopping for charcoal should be solved, once you have coke research.
All in all, its still a slow start, but I like the concept, because automation gets much more valuable once you have it

EDIT: Ratzap was faster :)

Post Reply

Return to “Mods”