[MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby jodokus31 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:45 pm

Ratzap wrote:Jod, I'd bet your problems are mostly because you're ahead of the part he has fixed up to. The wood thing is a valid concern though yes, base game doesn't have automated wood because it barely uses any. This mod uses quite a lot and really needs to provide means to get it or put a banner in the OP saying "use bobs greenhouse" ;)

One thing I noticed is the labs and research time. Burner labs aren't used in the recipe for electric labs so they are a complete waste of resource - meaning you don't want to over build them. But the tech path to get to electric labs contains some very slow ones - electric engine was the worst I think at nearly 2 hours for a single burner lab. More labs goes faster yes but it's a lot of wasted resource.


Yes, I know, that im looking to parts, which are not reworked yet. But I think, some support there could help, to advance faster. I think, the wood issue was planned to be solved, without having a way to create wood automatically. But it seems, that is not quite realistic, unless you have later techs. In addition I use those Nanobots, whose recipe is quite wood intense (iron axe, steel tooling 1a and circuits) on the other hand i could farm wood quite fast with them

The not reusable crude parts later are quite many, if i think about the abundance of slow belts, burner drills etc. I have created 4 burner labs so far and it took very long to get to electric labs having about 20 hours now. Im thinking about the mod Reverse Factory, because my local iron patch is getting quite low and trains are far away.

EDIT: The Standard Mineral Concentrator (which is the successor of the Crude Mineral Sluice) cannot craft the basic recipes (clay, limestone, saltpeter, quartz). Should it?
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Ratzap » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:22 pm

I beelined for electric labs and electric miners - got there in 10 hours played with 2 burner labs. I think I'll pause there for a bit to let the author move ahead, maybe play a bit more to build up the automation steps.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby kerash_the_crow » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:02 pm

anybody knows how do pipes work in this mod? i mean, are the different materials used for different substances or they are tiered in quality? (like copper < iron < steel, etc)
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Repofme1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:01 pm

kerash_the_crow wrote:anybody knows how do pipes work in this mod? i mean, are the different materials used for different substances or they are tiered in quality? (like copper < iron < steel, etc)


The pipes are all mostly identical right now. The only difference is that better materials have longer underground distances. While I would like to make the pipes have more interesting features, the base game prototypes simply can't handle it, and I don't know the base API well enough to change such deep stuff. Particularly, I would like to give the different kinds of pipes limits on what they can carry, for example sulfuric acid could go in copper but not iron or steel. The same with tanks. But I simply don;t have that ability :(
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Repofme1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:07 pm

Airat9000 wrote:
donoya wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:
donoya wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:Fixed automatic?
clay
iron casting?

Clay can be automated in the mineral sieve which is unlocked by one of the early techs and iron castings can be made in the clay furnace. I hope that answered your question.


you talked about this technology *?

2017-09-09_7-05-32.png



find
2017-09-09_7-15-41.png

2017-09-09_7-15-57.png

Yeah. Sorry, I forgot some of the names.

Edit:
Also, WHY IS THAT TECH SO EXPENSIVE!?



:D 1000x technology ))
find bug


Not a bug, phenol (molecule substance on the left) is a solid. Waste water is a brown liquid. Considering changing this recipe.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Repofme1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:25 pm

jodokus31 wrote:
Ratzap wrote:Jod, I'd bet your problems are mostly because you're ahead of the part he has fixed up to. The wood thing is a valid concern though yes, base game doesn't have automated wood because it barely uses any. This mod uses quite a lot and really needs to provide means to get it or put a banner in the OP saying "use bobs greenhouse" ;)

One thing I noticed is the labs and research time. Burner labs aren't used in the recipe for electric labs so they are a complete waste of resource - meaning you don't want to over build them. But the tech path to get to electric labs contains some very slow ones - electric engine was the worst I think at nearly 2 hours for a single burner lab. More labs goes faster yes but it's a lot of wasted resource.


Yes, I know, that im looking to parts, which are not reworked yet. But I think, some support there could help, to advance faster. I think, the wood issue was planned to be solved, without having a way to create wood automatically. But it seems, that is not quite realistic, unless you have later techs. In addition I use those Nanobots, whose recipe is quite wood intense (iron axe, steel tooling 1a and circuits) on the other hand i could farm wood quite fast with them

The not reusable crude parts later are quite many, if i think about the abundance of slow belts, burner drills etc. I have created 4 burner labs so far and it took very long to get to electric labs having about 20 hours now. Im thinking about the mod Reverse Factory, because my local iron patch is getting quite low and trains are far away.

EDIT: The Standard Mineral Concentrator (which is the successor of the Crude Mineral Sluice) cannot craft the basic recipes (clay, limestone, saltpeter, quartz). Should it?


That's correct about parts which are not fixed yet - my test world is not as far as either of yours :| That's why it is actually very helpful, when people point out issues, so I know what to focus on. For example, several situations that I now know to address, but had not reached yet: too much need for wood, electric furnace recipe, combinators, fluid handling, early waste, science costs, resources & trains. And yeah, part of your trouble is with nanobots, I wasn't really counting on other large uses for wood.

Resources are one of these issues, because the XM marathon complexity uses so much. I haven't run into resource trouble yet, but I haven't gotten very far either. I definitely want to make trains easier to get, for realism as well as balance. I also realize, that the more my world balloons, the more we need to recycle machines for iron. That is another thing to address, although I don't know whether to add it to XM or simply recommend another mod like Reverse Factory. I'm leaning towards the former.

I'll take a look at the mineral concentrator too...
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby jodokus31 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:12 pm

Repofme1 wrote:That's correct about parts which are not fixed yet - my test world is not as far as either of yours :| That's why it is actually very helpful, when people point out issues, so I know what to focus on. For example, several situations that I now know to address, but had not reached yet: too much need for wood, electric furnace recipe, combinators, fluid handling, early waste, science costs, resources & trains. And yeah, part of your trouble is with nanobots, I wasn't really counting on other large uses for wood.

Resources are one of these issues, because the XM marathon complexity uses so much. I haven't run into resource trouble yet, but I haven't gotten very far either. I definitely want to make trains easier to get, for realism as well as balance. I also realize, that the more my world balloons, the more we need to recycle machines for iron. That is another thing to address, although I don't know whether to add it to XM or simply recommend another mod like Reverse Factory. I'm leaning towards the former.

I'll take a look at the mineral concentrator too...


Thanks for looking into those issues.

One thing about wood. Those nanobots are using quite a bit, but even without them, the consumption is still there. Even a small amount of wood, which is consumed regulary, like circuits, methanol, etc. is propably to much, if you have to chop it manually. It works for about the first hours, but after that, there should be a solution to avoid it completely. As production grows, you'll need more and more and there should be solution, not for realism, but for gaming fun. Either, no wood after the first hours and replacement of every item, which uses wood or a way to gain wood somehow, like greenhouse. Thats my opinion.

Regarding resources: Maybe it could be tweaked, that starter resources are enough to get to train era. With RSO it may happen, that you have to travel really far, to get new supply. I also wondering, if the other ores should be accessible from starting area. I actually dont know, which ore is needed next after coal, iron, copper, tin, galena, bauxite and stone, but it should be so, that you can have trains until the next ore is needed or it should be added to starting area.

Looking forward for next releases.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Airat9000 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:19 pm

on what to produce this apparatus? and what kind of technology is needed?

and chemical plant not automatic create
2017-09-12_22-18-32.png
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby donoya » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:57 am

Airat9000 wrote:on what to produce this apparatus? and what kind of technology is needed?

and chemical plant not automatic create
2017-09-12_22-18-32.png

You must hand craft those until you get far enough.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Airat9000 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:29 am

donoya wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:on what to produce this apparatus? and what kind of technology is needed?

and chemical plant not automatic create
2017-09-12_22-18-32.png

You must hand craft those until you get far enough.


technology? example automatic craft?
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby orzelek » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:02 pm

Airat9000 wrote:
donoya wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:on what to produce this apparatus? and what kind of technology is needed?

and chemical plant not automatic create
2017-09-12_22-18-32.png

You must hand craft those until you get far enough.


technology? example automatic craft?

you need assembling machine that can make stuff with 4 ingredients. I don't recall if it's 2 or 3 that can do this.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby donoya » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:35 pm

orzelek wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:
donoya wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:on what to produce this apparatus? and what kind of technology is needed?

and chemical plant not automatic create
2017-09-12_22-18-32.png

You must hand craft those until you get far enough.


technology? example automatic craft?

you need assembling machine that can make stuff with 4 ingredients. I don't recall if it's 2 or 3 that can do this.

The item he's referencing uses 5 ingredients.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Repofme1 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:47 pm

donoya wrote:
orzelek wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:
donoya wrote:
Airat9000 wrote:on what to produce this apparatus? and what kind of technology is needed?

and chemical plant not automatic create
2017-09-12_22-18-32.png

You must hand craft those until you get far enough.


technology? example automatic craft?

you need assembling machine that can make stuff with 4 ingredients. I don't recall if it's 2 or 3 that can do this.

The item he's referencing uses 5 ingredients.


The burner machine tool has recipe category "basic-crafting", which can only be done by player, the burner assembling machine, and the electric assembling machine 1. However the burner machine tool recipe has 5 ingredients (like donoya wrote). The burner assembling machine and electric assembling machine can only craft recipes with 4 ingredients each, so they can't make the burner machine tool. Therefore, yes, the burner machine tool cannot be automated; you have to craft them by hand.

Fortunately, the burner machine tool should not need to be produced automatically. It is only used in the very beginning, before it is replaced by the electric machine tool 1. The electric version only needs 4 ingredients to make, so it can be automated in all assembling machines.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Repofme1 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:45 am

jodokus31 wrote:
Repofme1 wrote:That's correct about parts which are not fixed yet - my test world is not as far as either of yours :| That's why it is actually very helpful, when people point out issues, so I know what to focus on. For example, several situations that I now know to address, but had not reached yet: too much need for wood, electric furnace recipe, combinators, fluid handling, early waste, science costs, resources & trains. And yeah, part of your trouble is with nanobots, I wasn't really counting on other large uses for wood.

Resources are one of these issues, because the XM marathon complexity uses so much. I haven't run into resource trouble yet, but I haven't gotten very far either. I definitely want to make trains easier to get, for realism as well as balance. I also realize, that the more my world balloons, the more we need to recycle machines for iron. That is another thing to address, although I don't know whether to add it to XM or simply recommend another mod like Reverse Factory. I'm leaning towards the former.

I'll take a look at the mineral concentrator too...


Thanks for looking into those issues.

One thing about wood. Those nanobots are using quite a bit, but even without them, the consumption is still there. Even a small amount of wood, which is consumed regulary, like circuits, methanol, etc. is propably to much, if you have to chop it manually. It works for about the first hours, but after that, there should be a solution to avoid it completely. As production grows, you'll need more and more and there should be solution, not for realism, but for gaming fun. Either, no wood after the first hours and replacement of every item, which uses wood or a way to gain wood somehow, like greenhouse. Thats my opinion.

Regarding resources: Maybe it could be tweaked, that starter resources are enough to get to train era. With RSO it may happen, that you have to travel really far, to get new supply. I also wondering, if the other ores should be accessible from starting area. I actually dont know, which ore is needed next after coal, iron, copper, tin, galena, bauxite and stone, but it should be so, that you can have trains until the next ore is needed or it should be added to starting area.

Looking forward for next releases.


Yeah, wood has been a difficult nut to crack for the entire time since I released the mod :x I'll get it eventually, though. I have a few principles that I try to design by:
1. Make wood fully replaced and obsolete by the end of the early stages.
2. Reduce wood costs, or replace wood-derived stuff with plausible alternatives, even in the early stages.
3. Solution of last resort is to add a burner-era-only wood greenhouse.
I am determined to make wood completely obsolete *eventually*, because it's not exactly the highest quality material. The question is, whether or not that point of "we need no more wood now", comes early enough. Currently, it looks like no, but I still have to finish working up to that point in my current game. Then I have to check how much wood I used in total, and stuff like that.

Regarding resources, the starting ones certainly ought to be enough to get to trains, especially in the RSO case. I think the starting area has enough types, but it may not have enough quantity in the current version. The RSO starting area is the only real place I would increase the generated amount, things just seem close together and more abundant in base. Again, I have to get to that point in my testing, then see how much it takes, and check what the typical world has to compare. I intend for pretty good advancement to be possible on starting resources, like trains, red belt, full electric 1 automation, basic oil, combat & defense (that's a whole different problem), etc.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Fantyx » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:45 am

I'm about 15 hours in on a deathworld version of your mod with some of the Bobs added and some QOL mods. I'd like to help with the tweaking. PM me on reddit (fantyx), if you'd like my input.
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Airat9000 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:37 am

:D Hello question - what in hematite ore? :( not map in
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby jodokus31 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:47 pm

Fantyx wrote:I'm about 15 hours in on a deathworld version of your mod with some of the Bobs added and some QOL mods. I'd like to help with the tweaking. PM me on reddit (fantyx), if you'd like my input.


Deathworld with Xander :o Sounds tough :) I must admit, that i switched biters off completely. So Im not helpful in balancing issues regarding defense

Repofme1 wrote:Regarding resources, the starting ones certainly ought to be enough to get to trains, especially in the RSO case. I think the starting area has enough types, but it may not have enough quantity in the current version. The RSO starting area is the only real place I would increase the generated amount, things just seem close together and more abundant in base. Again, I have to get to that point in my testing, then see how much it takes, and check what the typical world has to compare. I intend for pretty good advancement to be possible on starting resources, like trains, red belt, full electric 1 automation, basic oil, combat & defense (that's a whole different problem), etc.


OK. I also did a mistake by not converting to more efficient iron processing soon enough. Fourtunately, I have a new iron patch nearby and can belt it in in case of emergency (its too far for my taste). I think, red belts are really expensive compared to yellow and are not crucial to get from starting area resources
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Airat9000 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:17 pm

all the same I think it is necessary to combine in the future angels and beans, fashion ...
pieces of 50 chemical elements found .. it's tough to produce 2 types of methanol or formaldehyde or from a bean plate - just a tin)

let's use the chemistry from the angel to use, while assembling the chips from the bob ypu mod replace.

все таки я думаю надо совместить в будущем ангелс и боба, моды...
штук 50 хим элементов нашел.. это жестко производить 2 типа метанола или формальдегида или от боба платы - просто жесть)
допустим химию от ангела использовать, тогда как сборка микросхем от боба заменить твоим модом.

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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Pongo » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:36 am

a new game. there are no electric poles. who faced? prescription is also not ...
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Re: [MOD 0.15+] Xander Mod v1.2.2

Postby Airat9000 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:34 pm

Pongo wrote:a new game. there are no electric poles. who faced? prescription is also not ...


yes - find and open technology - hardness
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