[MOD 0.17.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

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TheSAguy
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by TheSAguy » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:19 pm

donkeystealing wrote:
DerGraue wrote:Hi there,

in my current game I also have the problem, that biters don't seem to expand at all, which is sadly gamebreaking.
I am using RSO, Marathon mod and a few other mods that shouldn't influence biters at all.

I am at about 10h into the game and evolution is a little below 50%.
I have the same problem, I suspect RSO. Don't know how to fix it either, it's really relaxing with my latest playthroughs. Biters used to expand aggressively relatively early, now I don't research walls. RSO settings are *1.4 bigger biter bases and standard settings for biters are frequency normal and size very large.
I'll do some testing over the weekend, but I really don't see how it can be NE Expansion. Might be a combination of mods. Will look into it.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by orzelek » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:28 pm

TheSAguy wrote:
donkeystealing wrote:
DerGraue wrote:Hi there,

in my current game I also have the problem, that biters don't seem to expand at all, which is sadly gamebreaking.
I am using RSO, Marathon mod and a few other mods that shouldn't influence biters at all.

I am at about 10h into the game and evolution is a little below 50%.
I have the same problem, I suspect RSO. Don't know how to fix it either, it's really relaxing with my latest playthroughs. Biters used to expand aggressively relatively early, now I don't research walls. RSO settings are *1.4 bigger biter bases and standard settings for biters are frequency normal and size very large.
I'll do some testing over the weekend, but I really don't see how it can be NE Expansion. Might be a combination of mods. Will look into it.
You should really have no problems with Natural evolution and RSO with migration unless you managed to produce some special case where migration fails to work properly.

You can look in F4 menu there is a setting that can show you expansion candidates. If you clear some close bases and explore really a lot of terrain then expansion can take some time to reach you. On normal setting RSO bases are quite sparse so there is a lot of space to migrate. If you are looking for combat then you need to up the enemy base frequency.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by DerGraue » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:24 am

In my past expierences with NE the Aliens occupied quiet quickly all the free spaces of the areas that I had already revealed. In the fog of war, they never expanded very far at all. So if I broke through the alien lines I could get into an area that was biter free. Right now, like I already wrote, 10 hours of playing, not a single expansion in quite a large area. I haven't killed any alien bases either. The pollution hasn't reached the alien bases yet, could that have something to do with it?

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by TheSAguy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:26 pm

Enemy Expansion Testing

Okay, so I did the following.
I ran 4 tests. The only mod I used on all was EvoGUI to see Evolution factor and Time.
The game and all mods were ran on Default settings, no config changes.
I start a game, expose a large area using:

Code: Select all

/c game.forces.player.chart(game.player.surface,{lefttop = {x = -1024, y = -1024}, rightbottom = {x = 1024, y = 1024}})
And then set the evolution factor to 50% and speed 100. Take an initial screen shot and then after 8h of in-game time, rerun the map expose to get an updated map and take another screenshot. Here are my findings.

First test with Vanilla Only, Second was with NE Exp only, Third was with NE Exp & RSO and the forth was with RSO Only.

First Test - Vanilla:
Start:
http://i.imgur.com/xUmW3G0.png
Image

Vanilla 8h later:
http://i.imgur.com/MgK0L22.png
Image


Second Test NE Expansion Only:

NE Only START:
http://i.imgur.com/BUD6nFi.png
Image

NE Only 8H later:
http://i.imgur.com/VhNvLUp.png
Image


NE Expansion and RSO
NE & RSO START:
http://i.imgur.com/2RgE3FC.png
Image


NE & RSO 8H later:
http://i.imgur.com/GTLVNZP.png
Image

RSO Only:
Start:
http://i.imgur.com/OyvF1XE.png
Image

11h later:
http://i.imgur.com/ov01qoC.png
Image

Lot of images...I included direct links, since they are chopped off.
So this is a quick and dirty test and obviously not real game play. I also only ran each one once. Real game play will probably limit expansion more due to having a base.
But from this, I can conclude that all mods work, BUT RSO has a much smaller Expansion than NE Ex or vanilla.
I have not made any changes to RSO default settings, so not sure if the two option in there could help make RSO a little more aggressive when it comes to expansion.

Code: Select all

use_RSO_biter_spawning = true    	-- enables spawning of biters controlled by RSO mod - less enemies around with more space between bases
use_vanilla_biter_spawning = false	-- enables using of vanilla spawning 
My Mods are usually for people who want a very tough challenge, so need to understand how to make RSO fit into that, when it comes to Spawners.
Thoughts?

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by orzelek » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:01 pm

Two options you present allow to select if RSO spawns biters or it lets vanilla spawning to take over.

For those tests you could enable expansion overlay from debug mode - it clearly shows why things work like that. I'm not sure if I should try to "fix" RSO or not. Biters are less frequent there by design and this leads to much lower perceived migration since biters will migrate a lot into free spots between bases.

With RSO default biter setting is much more sparse then vanilla. If it's upped to high on map gen settings biters will be much more prominent.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by TheSAguy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:31 pm

orzelek wrote:Two options you present allow to select if RSO spawns biters or it lets vanilla spawning to take over.

For those tests you could enable expansion overlay from debug mode - it clearly shows why things work like that. I'm not sure if I should try to "fix" RSO or not. Biters are less frequent there by design and this leads to much lower perceived migration since biters will migrate a lot into free spots between bases.

With RSO default biter setting is much more sparse then vanilla. If it's upped to high on map gen settings biters will be much more prominent.
I realize that with RSO has sparse enemies, but it also seems to have a much "slower" expansion than normal. Not sure if that's caused just because of all the space they have...

Could you possibly make a config setting to have RSO not affect Enemies at all, just resources. This have biters be controlled by the Vanilla game settings?

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by orzelek » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:36 pm

TheSAguy wrote:
orzelek wrote:Two options you present allow to select if RSO spawns biters or it lets vanilla spawning to take over.

For those tests you could enable expansion overlay from debug mode - it clearly shows why things work like that. I'm not sure if I should try to "fix" RSO or not. Biters are less frequent there by design and this leads to much lower perceived migration since biters will migrate a lot into free spots between bases.

With RSO default biter setting is much more sparse then vanilla. If it's upped to high on map gen settings biters will be much more prominent.
I realize that with RSO has sparse enemies, but it also seems to have a much "slower" expansion than normal. Not sure if that's caused just because of all the space they have...

Could you possibly make a config setting to have RSO not affect Enemies at all, just resources. This have biters be controlled by the Vanilla game settings?
Thing is that RSO doesn't touch any biter settings other then base spawning. It can disable the expansion by using config option but it doesn't change any expansion parameters.

And settings you pasted above actually let you disable RSO spawning and enable vanilla one (use_RSO_biter_spawning and use_vanilla_biter_spawning).

I could make RSO switch to vanilla if NE Expansion is detected. I'm still not sure that there is an issue here - lower biters are normal for RSO and it works as intended currently.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by DerGraue » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:32 am

Alright, that explaines obviously the lack of new alien nests.
Since I can disable or enable that feature in the options I think that is more than enough to set the game to your prefered playstyle.
So for me, that means problem solved, I can continue with my game :D

Thank you both so much for your help, time and of course your awesome mods :D

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by TheSAguy » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:40 am

orzelek wrote:
TheSAguy wrote:
orzelek wrote:Two options you present allow to select if RSO spawns biters or it lets vanilla spawning to take over.

For those tests you could enable expansion overlay from debug mode - it clearly shows why things work like that. I'm not sure if I should try to "fix" RSO or not. Biters are less frequent there by design and this leads to much lower perceived migration since biters will migrate a lot into free spots between bases.

With RSO default biter setting is much more sparse then vanilla. If it's upped to high on map gen settings biters will be much more prominent.
I realize that with RSO has sparse enemies, but it also seems to have a much "slower" expansion than normal. Not sure if that's caused just because of all the space they have...

Could you possibly make a config setting to have RSO not affect Enemies at all, just resources. This have biters be controlled by the Vanilla game settings?
Thing is that RSO doesn't touch any biter settings other then base spawning. It can disable the expansion by using config option but it doesn't change any expansion parameters.

And settings you pasted above actually let you disable RSO spawning and enable vanilla one (use_RSO_biter_spawning and use_vanilla_biter_spawning).

I could make RSO switch to vanilla if NE Expansion is detected. I'm still not sure that there is an issue here - lower biters are normal for RSO and it works as intended currently.
I agree nothing needs to change, you have built in the ability to make the needed adjustments to have a more challenging Enemy presence.
Even though you state what those settings do, it's eye opening to actually see the results. I'll make a link to my findings in the OP so people are aware of this if they are not already.

I was wondering what would happen if one would set both to true? (use_RSO_biter_spawning and use_vanilla_biter_spawning).
It seems that they should be mutually exclusive.

Congrats on being the number 1 downloaded on on the Mod Portal.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.0

Post by orzelek » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:47 am

Biter spawning settings were not made to be exclusive by me since technically they will work together.
Both of generators (vanilla and RSO) can work separately and generate based on separate rules. So with both enabled you'll have a mix.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.1

Post by Berkys32 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:52 pm

I dont know why, but Artifact collector cant be picked using "Picker" mod or even build via blueprint or removed with deconstruction planner

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Scorched Earth coastline render

Post by doktorstick » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:21 pm

I noticed on the mod portal that for NEEnemies, V6.2.1 - Slight tweak to "Scorched Earth". If not near water the edges will be rounded. If near water, they have to be square. I am unsure if it's working properly. The scorched earth is near the water, and they are definitely square... Here are the version of the NE* mods currently (and at game start):

Code: Select all

$ find . -name "Natural*" -depth 1
./Natural_Evolution_Buildings_6.2.1.zip
./Natural_Evolution_Enemies_6.2.1.zip
./Natural_Evolution_Expansion_6.2.1
Here's an image that captures the problem. You'll notice that the scorched earth destroys the coastline tiles it replaces as well as non-adjacent coastline tiles nearby. It would be preferable IMO not to have scorched earth on the coast if trade-off is ugly tiles; it's so ugly in fact I can only imagine this being a bug :D.

Image

I checked my autosaves and I do not have a version pre-scorched earth.
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Re: Scorched Earth coastline render

Post by TheSAguy » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:05 pm

doktorstick wrote:I noticed on the mod portal that for NEEnemies, V6.2.1 - Slight tweak to "Scorched Earth". If not near water the edges will be rounded. If near water, they have to be square. I am unsure if it's working properly. The scorched earth is near the water, and they are definitely square... Here are the version of the NE* mods currently (and at game start):

Code: Select all

$ find . -name "Natural*" -depth 1
./Natural_Evolution_Buildings_6.2.1.zip
./Natural_Evolution_Enemies_6.2.1.zip
./Natural_Evolution_Expansion_6.2.1
Here's an image that captures the problem. You'll notice that the scorched earth destroys the coastline tiles it replaces as well as non-adjacent coastline tiles nearby. It would be preferable IMO not to have scorched earth on the coast if trade-off is ugly tiles; it's so ugly in fact I can only imagine this being a bug :D.

Image

I checked my autosaves and I do not have a version pre-scorched earth.
There is currently no way around this. If I give those squares boarders it does landfill...
I'm looking into ways to improve this. Maybe I'll just have no tile change when there is water near. For now, it is what it is. Vanilla game restriction.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.1

Post by TheSAguy » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:06 pm

Berkys32 wrote:I dont know why, but Artifact collector cant be picked using "Picker" mod or even build via blueprint or removed with deconstruction planner
I'll take a look at this when I have a moment.

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Re: Scorched Earth coastline render

Post by doktorstick » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:59 pm

TheSAguy wrote:I'm looking into ways to improve this. Maybe I'll just have no tile change when there is water near.
Yeah, I gotcha. This would be my two-cent preference.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.4

Post by TheSAguy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:31 am

V 6.2.4 release of NE Buildings and Enemies.

This is mainly in response to Veden's new Rampant AI mod. A must for anyone wanting a little more intelligent AI.

NE E:
If you're playing with Bio Industries, the Big Wooden Pole will auto regenerate on being destroyed.

NE B:
Fix to Living wall.
Player worm turrets range increased.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.4

Post by doktorstick » Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:26 am

When constructing a new terraforming building N, how is its effectiveness calculated?
  • 1 - 0.15N -- e.g., 0% effectiveness on 7th building
  • 1 * 0.85^N -- e.g., 32% effectiveness on 7th building
Also, will the enemies de-evolve? I had my evolution at 61% running the the Science Tweak Mod + Rampage + RSO and that was getting too high for my technology level. I built six terraforming installations and have been extra careful with pollution and it's fallen to 52% and still going.

Cheers.
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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.1

Post by Nexela » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:51 am

Berkys32 wrote:I dont know why, but Artifact collector cant be picked using "Picker" mod or even build via blueprint or removed with deconstruction planner
As to "picker" This is because the "placed" collector does not have an item-prototype associated with it. I will shoot the author of picker the fix for that shortly.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.4

Post by orzelek » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:19 am

doktorstick wrote:When constructing a new terraforming building N, how is its effectiveness calculated?
  • 1 - 0.15N -- e.g., 0% effectiveness on 7th building
  • 1 * 0.85^N -- e.g., 32% effectiveness on 7th building
Also, will the enemies de-evolve? I had my evolution at 61% running the the Science Tweak Mod + Rampage + RSO and that was getting too high for my technology level. I built six terraforming installations and have been extra careful with pollution and it's fallen to 52% and still going.

Cheers.
I can answer the second question - as evolution dereases newly generated aliens will be based on current level. So you might have some more difficult aliens still but new ones will be easier.

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Re: [MOD 0.12.x | 0.13.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien! - 6.2.1

Post by Nexela » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:43 am

Nexela wrote:
Berkys32 wrote:I dont know why, but Artifact collector cant be picked using "Picker" mod or even build via blueprint or removed with deconstruction planner
As to "picker" This is because the "placed" collector does not have an item-prototype associated with it. I will shoot the author of picker the fix for that shortly.

And I have a fix for blueprint/deconstruction which still allows the range circle but it now shows up as a chest correctly :)

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