[MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Topics and discussion about specific mods
User avatar
cpy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:34 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by cpy »

Alien science pack cost does not seem to work, with 0.12.7 version.
Everything in tier10 seem to be scaled i set 8x red green blue alien and everything is 8x except alien pack.

data-final-fixes.lua line 95
wrong:
if (multiplier.cost.circuit ~= nil) then
mult = multiplier.cost.alien

correct (maybe? it seems to be working) :
if (multiplier.cost.alien ~= nil) then
mult = multiplier.cost.alien
Last edited by cpy on Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:26 am, edited 5 times in total.

safan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:26 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by safan »

yes the issue is non-existant, i never knew you could make the lead plates in a normal furnace (like iron or copper) and you don't need the lead processing tech.

* got sniped, this goes about the creation of the assembler 2 in bob's discussion*

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by UberWaffe »

cpy wrote:Alien science pack cost does not seem to work, with 0.12.7 version.
Everything in tier10 seem to be scaled i set 8x red green blue alien and everything is 8x except alien pack.
Thanks for spotting that, it was in fact broken for alien science packs (vanilla), and dark blue and gold science packs from Bobingabout's Mods.
Lines 88, 95, 101 were all copy&paste errors.
Should be fixed now. Did a quick test, and seems to be working now.

User avatar
cpy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:34 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by cpy »

Is it me or tier 3 lab or maybe others too (i haven really tested them all or noticed) is too damn fast. I mean i have 150s research time and it can do it in 10s without modules. Only with 2 lab speed upgrades.

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by UberWaffe »

cpy wrote:Is it me or tier 3 lab or maybe others too (i haven really tested them all or noticed) is too damn fast. I mean i have 150s research time and it can do it in 10s without modules. Only with 2 lab speed upgrades.
All the labs have a crafting speed of 1 (same as vanilla lab). The tiers are simply limit what can be researched inside them (mainly it is to make higher tier labs more energy expensive). So this shouldn't be happening.

To help narrow this down:
Does the research still display a research time of 150s? (I.e. it isn't showing something small like 10s per item?)
=> If not, then what config from Science Overhaul Mod are you using? (Ex: sciencecosttweaker.options.difficultyCost = "normal" in the config.lua file)

=> If the time is displaying correctly, then:
=> Do you have any other mods installed that also affect labs or research?
=> If yes: Can you give your modlist? I'll try and see what is going on.
=> If no: Not sure. Will have to dig some more.

hoho
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:23 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by hoho »

cpy wrote:Is it me or tier 3 lab or maybe others too (i haven really tested them all or noticed) is too damn fast. I mean i have 150s research time and it can do it in 10s without modules. Only with 2 lab speed upgrades.
Are you sure you aren't talking about a single "bottle" being consumed in 10s instead of one "tick" of research done in 10s?
If a research cost is 150s per "tick", 100 ticks per research project and each tick taking 15 red bottles then without lab upgrades you'd be consuming a red bottle every 10s.

I haven't seen such issues so far. Research takes ages, just as it's supposed to :)

hoho
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:23 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by hoho »

I have to correct myself. I just had a test with ElectroChemics lab vs Full Spectrum Atomics lab and the latter ideed runs faster, ~2.5x faster in fact. My misconception came from me not having upgraded my labs to tier three.
I'm running with a metric ton of mods and this one is configured at "normal" settings.

I believe the "problem" comes from the speed of science labs being a function of power usage. Each next tier of labs consumes more power and is able to chew through science packs at faster the rate. I'm almost certain it's a limitation in the base engine of the game. If you don't want to have super-fast labs then the power usage of them has to be scaled back.

User avatar
cpy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:34 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by cpy »

My idea of lab speed is same, i think more power it eats, faster it goes. I have to test it but i haven't had much time with factorio in last few days.

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker Mod

Post by UberWaffe »

hoho wrote:I have to correct myself. I just had a test with ElectroChemics lab vs Full Spectrum Atomics lab and the latter ideed runs faster, ~2.5x faster in fact. My misconception came from me not having upgraded my labs to tier three.
I'm running with a metric ton of mods and this one is configured at "normal" settings.

I believe the "problem" comes from the speed of science labs being a function of power usage. Each next tier of labs consumes more power and is able to chew through science packs at faster the rate. I'm almost certain it's a limitation in the base engine of the game. If you don't want to have super-fast labs then the power usage of them has to be scaled back.
cpy wrote:My idea of lab speed is same, i think more power it eats, faster it goes. I have to test it but i haven't had much time with factorio in last few days.
Wait, really? I had never even imagined that would be the case. I had simply assumed as with everything else that full power simply means 100% of defined crafting speed, and that 'low power' can make it slower.
I'll play around a bit and see if this is true. If it is, then I'll see if I can scale back the crafting speed of higher tier labs to counter their higher energy consumption.

Thanks @cpy and @hoho for pointing out this bug.

[EDIT]
I've tested this on the vanilla base game, and even changing the energy_usage of the base lab entity causes the speed to be affected.
I've logged it as a bug on the bug report forum (https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =7&t=15350).
If the developers are going to fix it in the next release of Factorio, I'm not going to bring out any special hotfix for it.
If not, then I'll post some form of hotfix that can be deleted after the base game addresses the behavior.

[UPDATE]
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 59#p104459
This has been addressed in the base game for the upcoming v0.12.6. Again, thanks @cpy.

User avatar
cpy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:34 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by cpy »

Well, at least we know it wasn't your bug but game bug! Heh, classic.

Timeslice
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:27 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by Timeslice »

I'm not sure if the dependancy can be fixed on your side, but can you get your ["lab"] recipe to load before Dytech Core so that the iron gears in your recipe get properly replaced with stone gears? Dytech locks iron gears behind Automation 1 research, which obviously isn't possible to do if the lab takes iron gears to craft.

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by UberWaffe »

Timeslice wrote:I'm not sure if the dependancy can be fixed on your side, but can you get your ["lab"] recipe to load before Dytech Core so that the iron gears in your recipe get properly replaced with stone gears? Dytech locks iron gears behind Automation 1 research, which obviously isn't possible to do if the lab takes iron gears to craft.
To fix it using load orders, the Dytech Core mod would have to add this mod as an optional dependency.

Alternatively, I could add Dytech Core as an optional dependency, and if it is detected, I could setup the recipe for the lab differently.
Would that be preferable?
If so, what should I use instead of gears? (I have not yet played Dytech, so I do not know.)

Timeslice
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:27 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by Timeslice »

UberWaffe wrote:
Timeslice wrote:I'm not sure if the dependancy can be fixed on your side, but can you get your ["lab"] recipe to load before Dytech Core so that the iron gears in your recipe get properly replaced with stone gears? Dytech locks iron gears behind Automation 1 research, which obviously isn't possible to do if the lab takes iron gears to craft.
To fix it using load orders, the Dytech Core mod would have to add this mod as an optional dependency.

Alternatively, I could add Dytech Core as an optional dependency, and if it is detected, I could setup the recipe for the lab differently.
Would that be preferable?
If so, what should I use instead of gears? (I have not yet played Dytech, so I do not know.)
Dytech automatically replaces the iron gears in several (but not all) recipes with stone gears. This is to allow iron gears to be gated behind automation 1, so anything you need to be able to have before then (such as belts, inserters, and red science packs) use stone gears instead. Technically it would be cleaner for dytech core to add SCT as an optional dependancy, as everything would be handled automatically from there. However it would be a simple matter for you to just use stone gears in the lab recipe when dytech is detected.

I'll let you decide.

In the mean time I actually removed SCT for now as I wasn't interested in the science cost tweaks to begin with (ironic, I know), and the intermediates, my favorite part, ended up being too cheap due to circumventing bob's intermediates. I took a look at your science intermediates and didn't immediately see an easy way to use bob's intermediates that I liked. I tend to build fairly small scale (compared to what I see other people do), so the cost tweaks didn't make much sense for me, but that may change in the future. Or if you ever feel like integrating bob's intermediates somehow I'd probably pick it back up again as well.

I definitely think this mod is a step in the right direction though, so I will be keeping an eye on it. And thanks for being so responsive to all of the issues that I apprently reported to the wrong threads :)

Timeslice
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:27 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by Timeslice »

I was thinking that using the bob's circuit intermediates in yours would be easier than trying to integrate the circuits themselves into your recipes.

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by UberWaffe »

Timeslice wrote:However it would be a simple matter for you to just use stone gears in the lab recipe when dytech is detected.
I'll let you decide.
I'll add the use of stone gears to SCT, since I have no control over Dytech, only SCT. :)
Timeslice wrote: In the mean time I actually removed SCT for now as I wasn't interested in the science cost tweaks to begin with (ironic, I know), and the intermediates, my favorite part, ended up being too cheap due to circumventing bob's intermediates. I took a look at your science intermediates and didn't immediately see an easy way to use bob's intermediates that I liked. I tend to build fairly small scale (compared to what I see other people do), so the cost tweaks didn't make much sense for me, but that may change in the future. Or if you ever feel like integrating bob's intermediates somehow I'd probably pick it back up again as well.

I definitely think this mod is a step in the right direction though, so I will be keeping an eye on it.
I'll take a look at rebalancing the

Code: Select all

sciencecosttweaker.options.bobsmods.useNewOres = true
option. It was last balanced before the new Bob's Electronics mod.
Timeslice wrote:And thanks for being so responsive to all of the issues that I apprently reported to the wrong threads :)
No worries. ;)

EDIT:
@Timeslice: Could you give me more info as to how the new intermediates were too cheap compared to normal Bob's Intermediates?
  • Which tiers of science packs are too cheap? Red? Green? Light Blue? Alien? All of them?
  • Is it that they cost too little resources? Or is it that they aren't complex enough? (I.e. do not have enough intermediate steps, so production lines are too easy to setup?)

Timeslice
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:27 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by Timeslice »

Reds were fine, as bob doesn't change those (dytech does, but I didn't mind that yours cost iron instead of stone, as your intermediates made a compelling argument). Greens weren't too bad, but blues were way off. Here are some flowcharts I slapped together. I didn't remember to indicate the processing machine, but I suppose it doesn't really matter. I didn't cover how to make sulfuric acid or petroleum gas, as there are several ways, and you know what those are anyways.

http://imgur.com/a/uXO8f

Bob also adds a dark blue science pack and several alien science packs, but I don't see any reason for you to worry about those.

*edit*: And I forgot to label the coal...

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by UberWaffe »

Timeslice wrote:Reds were fine, as bob doesn't change those (dytech does, but I didn't mind that yours cost iron instead of stone, as your intermediates made a compelling argument). Greens weren't too bad, but blues were way off. Here are some flowcharts I slapped together. I didn't remember to indicate the processing machine, but I suppose it doesn't really matter. I didn't cover how to make sulfuric acid or petroleum gas, as there are several ways, and you know what those are anyways.

http://imgur.com/a/uXO8f

Bob also adds a dark blue science pack and several alien science packs, but I don't see any reason for you to worry about those.

*edit*: And I forgot to label the coal...
Ah, thanks. That will be really helpful.

hoho
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 675
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:23 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by hoho »

Timeslice wrote:Greens weren't too bad, but blues were way off.
I think blues are way off only if comparing them to the alien science packs. Alien packs are trivial to make with this mod compared to blues, not *that* much harder than greens.

In other words, I don't personally think that blues are too hard to make but I do think that alien science packs are waaay too simple.

UberWaffe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by UberWaffe »

hoho wrote:... but I do think that alien science packs are waaay too simple.
Previously I had a comment that with the increased science pack costs, alien science research ended up costing too many artifacts.
Hence why I upped the amount of science packs created per alien artifact.

Would it make sense to make the amount of alien science packs per artifact configurable in the config files?

Or am I guessing wrong and "too simple" refers to something else concerning their production?

Timeslice
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:27 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

Post by Timeslice »

I... don't think hoho understands that we were talking about Bob's Mods.

Post Reply

Return to “Mods”