Page 3 of 4

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:50 pm
by mohreb
ssilk wrote: More colors: No good idea! It spoils the inventory. It doesn't make anything easier. The current two are in my opinion already too much (but I can live with them and they look nice) and there is always a way to reduce two wires into one. I mean the current function of the wires are not really understood by most players.
No one is forcing people to use more colors, but it would give a possibility to use more. for me it would be easier to read if there were more then 2 colors, and less of a head-hurt to figure out how do i need to connect separate circuits so they do not accidentally touch each-other. for a separate view for them, that would be a great idea too if it is easy to read.
What i really like on circuits it is like programming with basic electric circuits which is a great fun (probably not for everybody, but for some of us it might be). in this direction there would be cool to if you could add different type of logical operators between conditions (AND / OR / XOR ..)

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:26 am
by ssilk
Hm. This is is common misunderstanding of the factorio circuit network: The red and green wires are not like real wires, they transport many information at once. You can compare them with cable-tv, where you transport many channels over one cable. In reality the wire belongs to a network and that is nothing than a big list in memory. One item is added to a chest, chest is connected to network, item in network is added, too. Very simplified.

A picture, which is eventually better understandable: the red and green wires contain several sub-cables. Like a thick telephone cable with hundreds of cables inside. The "sub-cables" have names on it like "iron plates" or "wood"...

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:35 am
by mohreb
i got it but if you have a condition which should apply to one chest only and an other which applies to an other chest both containing the same material, the result will be added up if your wires touch and that way your condition can not apply properly.

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:23 am
by ssilk
Well, yes, currently we have the red and green wires exactly for that. And the inserter then can perform an AND operation with them. What you want happens currently in the inserter (or some other new device): he performs the equal operations for one signal in the red and green wire (and logistic network) and then makes an AND-operation over the resulting Boolean signals.

I think it would be a bad idea to have special devices, which perform one type of logic operation only. That doesn't bring the game forward.

I see it so: The wires are like a bus-system and the signals are like a steady stream of changing information.

This is like in a music studio! They have there devices, which you can stack up in a rack and you plug in certain signals and perform operations on the signals and create new signals out of them, which are then used in other devices. And in the end you have music coming out of the speakers.

But the essential elements are so:
- we have something like a rack and you can feed in signals. What signals and from where is a different question, but I think you can plug in 2 wires (a red and a green for example) and then choose some of the signals out of them, which are routed to the internal bus of the rack.
- you can the plug modules in it. I want to have only one type of module (simply some of the existing stuff, like electric/advanced circuit, the existing three modules...), because the function then can be selected (an electric circuit can perform only simple logic operations, while a speed module can perform timer operations)
- you select the function the module obtains, for example a multiplication. Or a timer. Or some type of logic operation. Or whatever. Then the input signal(s) and then the output signal(s). The output signal(s) is directly routed back to the internal bus.
- this rack device has of course two outputs, you can select them from the bus.

So you can create a signal chain, which performs very complicated stuff but is more or less easy to handle, because the inside of the rack must be of course part of a saved blueprint.

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:34 am
by mohreb
i did not speak about special materials handling the different logical operations, i told to set the different kind of operations in conditions.
And as it goes now, red and green signals are more of a look in those chest kind a set up not a bus system. (as long as there is only conditions on quantities of a type of material) so having more color would not be more complicated, in the contrary. if they were more like a signal then yes, the described elements by ssilk would be cool to handle them. (except the timer parts, the problem with timer is that in a factory base time is "one inserter move" so it is kind-a strange to have seconds and try to make them match with inserter moves, it is the same problem with quantity conditions, you can say i want 100 or 200 but not that i want 2 stack :S it would be more efficient to handle materials stack size wise (like setting 1/2/4/8/16/32...)

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:46 am
by DrNoid
kovarex wrote:I'm not working on it yet.
Could you tell us more about the direction you plan on taking things? Would it help if we elaborate our ideas more?

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:02 pm
by ssilk
mohreb wrote:i did not speak about special materials handling the different logical operations, i told to set the different kind of operations in conditions.
But not how...
And as it goes now, red and green signals are more of a look in those chest kind a set up not a bus system. (as long as there is only conditions on quantities of a type of material) so having more color would not be more complicated, in the contrary.
If based on the current behavior then yes, cause as already said, more colors, more inventory-spam or more wait on crafting. Both can't be a game target. As I turn it into any direction, I don't see, how a copy of making it like in minecraft or many other games makes sense.
if they were more like a signal then yes, the described elements by ssilk would be cool to handle them.
I'll paint my ideas more detailed, soon. :)
(except the timer parts, the problem with timer is that in a factory base time is "one inserter move" so it is kind-a strange to have seconds and try to make them match with inserter moves, it is the same problem with quantity conditions, you can say i want 100 or 200 but not that i want 2 stack :S it would be more efficient to handle materials stack size wise (like setting 1/2/4/8/16/32...
As already said, you cannot calculate exact numbers of items, because of the stack size bonuses.

Let's say you have linked a green wire with a chest and inserter. The inserter inserts from an assembly the produced electric circuits into the chest. You programmed the inserter to continue if lower than 20. And you already have 10 items in.

With a stack size bonus of 0 this is clear: one move of the inserter is one item more in the chest.so with 10 move you have exactly 20. That's what you wanted. But with stack size bonus 2 it is 3 items! With 4 moves you have 22. Wanted? Awaited?

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:09 pm
by mohreb
with stack size i meant lets request 128 item instead of 100 if it stacks at 128 ... (on yourself or in request chests ...)

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:16 pm
by ssilk
Yeah, I know what you mean. You want to have more options for comparisons or number of items. But that is just a GUI thing: more options of choosing a number. :)

But the problem to fill exactly 1 item, a dozen items or 1 stack of something into a chest remains as the same problem: if you have a stacksize bonus of 1 or more you fill not longer one item into a chest, you fill more. This is the same problem, as if you use two or more inserters at the same time to fill a chest. :roll:

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:21 am
by sciencemile
That's not good; what happens if a chest is 4 away from full and an inserter picks up five items and attempts to insert them? Is the 5th item destroyed, is the inserter unable to insert the full 5, or are 4 inserted and the 5th item left in the inserter's hand?

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:55 am
by DrNoid
sciencemile wrote:That's not good; what happens if a chest is 4 away from full and an inserter picks up five items and attempts to insert them? Is the 5th item destroyed, is the inserter unable to insert the full 5, or are 4 inserted and the 5th item left in the inserter's hand?
The inserter inserts 4 and waits, with the 5th in hand, until there is a spot free.

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:33 am
by Anyone
I'm a new user and I'm scared of using it. I've got about 5 hours of playtime now and I've seen them come by, but I have absolutely no idea what they are. Being a programmer myself, I'm curious about them and I'm trying to envision how to automate them. I've not yet been at a stage where I wanted/needed it though, but they seem extremely scary, harder to use than redstone in minecraft.

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:49 pm
by HammerPiano
Anyone wrote:I'm a new user and I'm scared of using it. I've got about 5 hours of playtime now and I've seen them come by, but I have absolutely no idea what they are. Being a programmer myself, I'm curious about them and I'm trying to envision how to automate them. I've not yet been at a stage where I wanted/needed it though, but they seem extremely scary, harder to use than redstone in minecraft.
They are indeed harder to use, but they have a very big potential.
If you want, I may be able and play a multiplayer with you, and I will try to explain about the signals and circuit network.

Example for a use of signals:
I am playing a game in bobs mods, to make carbon you need coal. But I don't want a lot of carbon. What I did, I took an inserter and connected it to a counter. I set the counter to count up to 300, and the inserter to work while the count value is less than 60. Now the belt has some coal, but not alot.


HammerPiano

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:20 pm
by nuhll
Where is: Yes, but i find them to complicated?

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:11 pm
by ssilk
Anyone wrote:I'm a new user and I'm scared of using it. I've got about 5 hours of playtime now and I've seen them come by, but I have absolutely no idea what they are. Being a programmer myself, I'm curious about them and I'm trying to envision how to automate them. I've not yet been at a stage where I wanted/needed it though, but they seem extremely scary, harder to use than redstone in minecraft.
It takes a lot more time to understand the circuits. Don't bother yourself with it, you don't need it to play and finish the game. Circuits become interesting after finishing the 3rd world or so. :)

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:30 pm
by nuhll
Anyone wrote:I'm a new user and I'm scared of using it. I've got about 5 hours of playtime now and I've seen them come by, but I have absolutely no idea what they are. Being a programmer myself, I'm curious about them and I'm trying to envision how to automate them. I've not yet been at a stage where I wanted/needed it though, but they seem extremely scary, harder to use than redstone in minecraft.
I can give you a very handy tip,i use them everythine in early game on rar items like batteries and kunststoff (dont kow english name).

I connect inserter with chest and set it to activate when batteries > 200. So i always have 200 in the chest for my personal use.

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:03 pm
by steinio
Eselsbrücke: Kunststoff = Plastik = plastic

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:53 pm
by Ardagan
Half of base is operated based on cirquit signals.

Examples:
1. Oil processing: balancing between solid fuel / oil cracking is minor example.
2. Siren when low on accumulator power. (Prevents random base power shutoffs.) Optional are fuel in steam generators. Other alerts as well.
3. Automated factories that should keep proper amount of items produced. (Really useful on no-hand-craft runs.)
4. Shipping coal to stations to fuel trains in vanilla.
5. Shutting off big factories in case of resource abundance for power storage.
6. Filter inserters configuration. Though this limits to capabilities of how setting filters operate sometimes.
7... more based on how motivated I am to cope with cirquit networks.

I feel that main problem here is how complicated cirquit networks are and how much space they take. It would be much more convenient to make cirquit network combinators modular. Like create one structure that contains a complicated network that you can wire as you like on grid. (Tiers, etc up to developer, but becomes overcomplication I guess) Some better debugging capabilities would also be nice.

One more thing is more different signals options would be nice. Like research level for stack size, etc.

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:41 am
by Koub
You're reviving a 5 year old topic that's been dead for 2 years <_<

Re: [Polls Closed] The signals

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:03 am
by AileTheAlien
Koub wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:41 am
You're reviving a 5 year old topic that's been dead for 2 years <_<
necromancy-mouse.gif
necromancy-mouse.gif (816.62 KiB) Viewed 998 times