RTS direction

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AndaleTheGreat
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Re: RTS direction

Post by AndaleTheGreat » Fri May 16, 2014 1:42 pm

I like the builder bots as it would give a needed answer to something I've said before. Players shouldn't be able to carry so much. I stated in an idea I posted that I thought any large or heavy materials should not be carry-able by players but place-able items could be. This is a moment of suspension of disbelief, but I still liked to imagine that the player was simply constructing rather than just placing. If upon crashing you were to find the only thing that survived was a first tier robot that could barely lift/build anything but could get you started making more stuff, well that would be a lot more realistic than cobbling together a furnace from some big rocks then walking it around. (That stone furnace looks awful nice and even gets painted, but let's be honest, it is a pile of rocks.)

I'm not sure I want RTS style control. If anything I would prefer to see something closer to Evil Genius rather than Starcraft, but even that is a subtle difference and I like being connected to this player.

Rather than a throne room I'd like too see some walls that have a hole in for transport belts and gates/doors that could open when the player or a train come near. All I am doing with walls now is making box with holes at turret points to create kill zones. I do think once one enemy dies to a turret the rest should be smart enough to run off or attack somewhere else, but that would make them a lot harder.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Avarant » Sat May 17, 2014 11:27 pm

You guys may be tired of hearing a hundred different opinions on this, but here's mine :). I think it strikes a balance between quite a few of the other suggestions...

There two main underlying motivations that I can see:

1. We love automation. We love having minions doing our bidding that don't require too much intervention. Instead of manually controlling armies of bots (which a number of people are opposed to, and it would suddenly put this game in competition with all the great RTS's already out there...), there could be automated behavior patterns of fighter bots. For example, you could have defense squads that operate through a radar. If the radar detects any enemies in its area of operation, it sends its assigned squad to the intruders. Preferably, the squad size and radius of defense are assigned by the player. Once this system is in place, you can finally give aliens better siege breaking abilities (ranged attacks to take down walled turrets), since the player has better and more dynamic tools to defend with than just walls and turrets. I would also suggest not allowing construction bots to repair any structures in an area that is currently under attack (should be easy to implement since 'under attack' status is already built in).

Automation on the offensive is already in place somewhat with the current bots hovering around the player, but better automation could be added in the form of adding an option to the above mentioned radar - check a box to Attack Enemy Structures. If there are any enemy structures in the radar's range, it will send it's squad to the area. A simple toggle checkbox would switch the role of the radar/bot controller between defensive and offensive.


2. We love power. If I have 100k copper/iron laying around in my chests and I could turn it into an army of destruction and power, I would be addicted. I would want to destroy more aliens so I can conquer more areas of resources and build more armies and become unstoppable. Turning raw resources into military might has a strong appeal to it. But without the automation element, it might start to become just another RTS, and move away from the heart of the game.


With the addition of army bots (an excellent resource sink) and tougher enemies, the motivation to expand and conquer will be greater than ever (instead of the 'turtle' strategy commonly used now). I think it would really add energy and purpose to the game. It might even give direction for end-game design (like a pre-built large alien 'city' that will shoot down any of your fellow colony ships until you can destroy it. But you must have a large military to stand a chance.)


Above all though, I think the two most appealing concepts to strive for if military/RTS bots are added are AUTOMATION and POWER.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Drury » Sun May 18, 2014 8:00 am

Avarant wrote:Instead of manually controlling armies of bots (which a number of people are opposed to, and it would suddenly put this game in competition with all the great RTS's already out there...),
RTS scene is dead and desperately needs a change. Pretty much the only competition there is is Starcraft - although that's a on a wildly different level that not even Factorio can only dream of achieving. CnC took the wrong way, then flopped around a little and died. The only thing keeping RTS players busy are CnC mods and indies that never get recognized at the same scale as Factorio is being recognized at this point.

Factorio does have potential to bring the wind of change to the RTS. Just don't be scared and let it happen.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Alfdaur » Sun May 18, 2014 10:14 am

Drury wrote:RTS scene is dead and desperately needs a change. Pretty much the only competition there is is Starcraft - although that's a on a wildly different level that not even Factorio can only dream of achieving. CnC took the wrong way, then flopped around a little and died. The only thing keeping RTS players busy are CnC mods and indies that never get recognized at the same scale as Factorio is being recognized at this point.

Factorio does have potential to bring the wind of change to the RTS. Just don't be scared and let it happen.
I'm sorry, but this game isn't a RTS and shouldn't be one. This game is more akin to the Anno series in that you build your empire up from scratch, a logistics game. Just like in the Anno series combat should be secondary to this game. You should play to the games strenght. The game could have aspects of Warzone 2100 in that you can different bases and different weapons. The movement and deployement of troops could be done like in a rts, but why not use the charm of the game: automation?

The problem into making the game an RTS is that by making the end game a RTS game, you'll alienate the following that the game has at this moment. Also, because the game has a slow start, RTS players would probably be bored before the RTS aspects of the game would even start.

Maybe the developers can make it work, but my advice is to stick to the niche that this game is already in.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Drury » Sun May 18, 2014 10:37 am

Y'all act like the game's limited to you locking yourself in your factory and watching stuff happen by itself, like the biters only exist so they can walk up to turrets and die. This is not true and has never been true. There are already RPG elements. You can build power armor and go whoop them up personally. It's not automated, you control your character, you go and kill stuff. And it's not an optional thing either, you HAVE to go out there and destroy bases to get those alien artifacts.

RTS elements would just be the endgame solution to this. Instead of going out there yourself you send a couple tanks. And by the way - this approach is way more "automated" than you manually walking up to biters.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Avarant » Sun May 18, 2014 2:06 pm

Drury wrote:
Avarant wrote:Instead of manually controlling armies of bots (which a number of people are opposed to, and it would suddenly put this game in competition with all the great RTS's already out there...),
RTS scene is dead and desperately needs a change. Pretty much the only competition there is is Starcraft - although that's a on a wildly different level that not even Factorio can only dream of achieving. CnC took the wrong way, then flopped around a little and died. The only thing keeping RTS players busy are CnC mods and indies that never get recognized at the same scale as Factorio is being recognized at this point.

Factorio does have potential to bring the wind of change to the RTS. Just don't be scared and let it happen.
Yeah, that's why I said it as a bad thing, something to be avoided. Instead, by having automated function of military bots instead of direct control, Factorio would still be primarily about logistics and not become a RTS.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Avarant » Sun May 18, 2014 2:09 pm

Alfdaur wrote:
Drury wrote:RTS scene is dead and desperately needs a change. Pretty much the only competition there is is Starcraft - although that's a on a wildly different level that not even Factorio can only dream of achieving. CnC took the wrong way, then flopped around a little and died. The only thing keeping RTS players busy are CnC mods and indies that never get recognized at the same scale as Factorio is being recognized at this point.

Factorio does have potential to bring the wind of change to the RTS. Just don't be scared and let it happen.
I'm sorry, but this game isn't a RTS and shouldn't be one. This game is more akin to the Anno series in that you build your empire up from scratch, a logistics game. Just like in the Anno series combat should be secondary to this game. You should play to the games strenght. The game could have aspects of Warzone 2100 in that you can different bases and different weapons. The movement and deployement of troops could be done like in a rts, but why not use the charm of the game: automation?

The problem into making the game an RTS is that by making the end game a RTS game, you'll alienate the following that the game has at this moment. Also, because the game has a slow start, RTS players would probably be bored before the RTS aspects of the game would even start.

Maybe the developers can make it work, but my advice is to stick to the niche that this game is already in.
Totally agree. That's why I came up with that automated method of growing and using a military. The focus would still be upon setting up the production lines to produce the military units, while the military units function mostly automatically using your strategic decisions of where to defend and where to attack.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Drury » Sun May 18, 2014 2:17 pm

You have said that Factorio wouldn't become RTS if the units were manufactured automatically (the bread of RTS) and now you're saying you'd be controlling where your units go (the butter of RTS), therefore it wouldn't become an RTS.

Make your mind up man.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Avarant » Sun May 18, 2014 2:18 pm

Drury wrote:Y'all act like the game's limited to you locking yourself in your factory and watching stuff happen by itself, like the biters only exist so they can walk up to turrets and die. This is not true and has never been true. There are already RPG elements. You can build power armor and go whoop them up personally. It's not automated, you control your character, you go and kill stuff. And it's not an optional thing either, you HAVE to go out there and destroy bases to get those alien artifacts.

RTS elements would just be the endgame solution to this. Instead of going out there yourself you send a couple tanks. And by the way - this approach is way more "automated" than you manually walking up to biters.

I'm not sure whose suggestions you're replying to, but I'll answer them as if you were talking about mine (just in case).

In the RTS-elements suggestions that I gave, obviously the player himself is never 'automated.' You still get your armor, upgrades, decisions on how to equip your power suit, your personal squad of destroyer bots. The implementation of *automation* that I think is important, is that you aren't REQUIRED to manually control squads of robots. You employ them under automatic enemy detection for defense, but can also manually take them with you for conquest of biter territory.

And if one of the endgame goals is to destroy a huge enemy base that houses their own 'rocket defense' that will shoot down your colony ships, then you also have extra motivation to get outside your walls, build your massive army, expand.

And of course, one of the greatest opportunities of adding these RTS elements that include automated control is giving the biters new weapons and siege tools. Defending your territory can be much more interesting (and yet still automated to the well prepared defender).

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Avarant » Sun May 18, 2014 2:19 pm

Drury wrote:You have said that Factorio wouldn't become RTS if the units were manufactured automatically (the bread of RTS) and now you're saying you'd be controlling where your units go (the butter of RTS), therefore it wouldn't become an RTS.

Make your mind up man.
I just meant that if you don't have to control armies manually all the time, it wouldn't be like most RTSs

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Re: RTS direction

Post by beeurd » Sun May 18, 2014 7:49 pm

The terrain style reminds me somewhat of a 90s RTS called Total Annihilation, in that game you have a Commander unit who is responsible for building the initial base and must be protected at all costs.

Having some extra defensive units or structures would be good for Factorio (IMHO) as long as it doesn't overtake the main manufacturing elements of the game. I can see why some wouldn't like a bigger RTS side to the game, but if it was just a small selection of units that could be automated then I can't see it hurting.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by krux02 » Sun May 18, 2014 9:19 pm

I do remember Total Annihilation. And yes I would absolutely love to see a development in that direction. The current end Game plays a lot like Alien Shooter.. It's not that I don't like Alien Shooter but I also don't think it is appropriate to the genre. I would love to see an super sized railway artillery cannon. Something like Schwerer Gustav.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Alfdaur » Tue May 20, 2014 8:18 am

Drury wrote:Y'all act like the game's limited to you locking yourself in your factory and watching stuff happen by itself, like the biters only exist so they can walk up to turrets and die. This is not true and has never been true. There are already RPG elements. You can build power armor and go whoop them up personally. It's not automated, you control your character, you go and kill stuff. And it's not an optional thing either, you HAVE to go out there and destroy bases to get those alien artifacts.

RTS elements would just be the endgame solution to this. Instead of going out there yourself you send a couple tanks. And by the way - this approach is way more "automated" than you manually walking up to biters.
I see your point. The game already has some RPG elements, that in my honest opinion fit quite nicely. You'r right in the fact that going in there yourself is more manual labor than sending some tanks/drones(, this also needs some automated recovery system for the artifacts). the thing for me is that this feels like the easy way out. Maybe it's better to have a button that can commence a alien base assault so that you can dessignate the target and dictate the time of the assault. This would add to the game. But I would not like it to be a direct control like in the Command and Conquer or "-craft" series. We don't have direct control on the logisticsrobots, but we can isue orders. I want to need large infrastructures to be able to field these armies and use them. I would like to see a massive tower that uses a lot of power for controling the wardrones like you need a robot port for logisticsrobots. Let these towers have two ranges, one for gaurding and one for assaulting. The gaurding range would be the range in which bitter activity would automaticly activate all the wardrones in the area. The assault range is the range in which the player can start an assault. These assault would be commenced from the developers mused "throne room" or from the large wardrone-tower. After initiating the assault the wardrones would swarm together like bitters before moving towards and assaulting the target location. (The swarming of biters for wardrones is to make them all attack at one moment and to make the programing of the wardrones more easily.)

So to make it clear. I'm for the armies under the command of the player. I'm for needing a large infrastructure to make and arm your tanks/drones (would prefer drones). I'm for needing an infrastructure of roboport like towers (including range) to be able to use them. But I don't want to have direct control over the units of your warmachine.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Avarant » Wed May 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Alfdaur wrote: So to make it clear. I'm for the armies under the command of the player. I'm for needing a large infrastructure to make and arm your tanks/drones (would prefer drones). I'm for needing an infrastructure of roboport like towers (including range) to be able to use them. But I don't want to have direct control over the units of your warmachine.
Yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking too. Dunno if you also saw my post but I gave my little 'vision' for how that might work.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by tralala » Wed May 21, 2014 4:28 pm

kovarex wrote: Throne room
Player would enter it, and he could start control the game in rts style, at this phase, he would already have robots for building stuff, and units to fight, so he would just order what needs to be done in bigger scale.
I had a similar idea on a somewhat smaller scale: remote control.

You place a building (like a roboport or even an addition to a roboport) which will allow you to remotely control that area. Remote control means you can zoom in on that place and order construction/deconstruction, change the recipes in factories and the settings of chests but can't insert modules or insert stuff into factories or chests directly. This would help to manage a big map with different production locations but would in some instances still require you to go there (missing ressources etc.).

I don't like the idea of construction robots which can construct everything from just ore and oil. There need to be a challenge that you have all pieces in place and everything set up properly.
Last edited by tralala on Fri May 23, 2014 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by domtronvox » Thu May 22, 2014 3:34 am

Hi, I haven't read through all 10 pages of posts but a number of people sound like they are describing (or thereabouts) the unit control mechanics of Globulation 2 [http://globulation2.org/wiki/Main_Page] a rts game that focuses on building up your base and creating units but you only have indirect control over them.

From the website "Globulation 2 brings a new type of gameplay to RTS games. The player chooses the number of units to assign to various tasks, and the units do their best to satisfy the requests. This allows players to manage more units and focus on strategy rather than on micro-management."

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Re: RTS direction

Post by ImperatorAdeptus » Thu May 22, 2014 7:59 am

We need more offensive Units like Mechs or Battledrones that the Player can order to take out Biter bases and bring back the Alien artifacts.
[The player shouldn't control those units directly though like in a classic RPG. You should just assign them an Area to Attack/Patrol and prepare for the Player to build new Factories on]

Also once the Player got the Missle defense up you should be able to trade with the Ships in Orbit.
Like you send them huge amounts of raw materials and they send you Soldiers/Military units in return or something like that.
A squad of Soldiers in Power armor taking out a Biter Base would be something I'd love to see.
[Also orbital bombardements. But I know thats a pipe dream lol]

I also think the biters should react more heavily to your Military presence on the Planet.
Like they will retake land you didn't keep safe and build Bases on their own.
They should also have Hive leaders or Queens that coordinate massive attacks of multiple Hives against your Base.

The industrial/building part of the Game is already pretty good.
Now if the Game would expand on the Military part it would be easily my GOTY.
~Give me a gun, a google-eyed alien to shoot it at, and I’ll die a happy man.~

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Re: RTS direction

Post by DrNoid » Thu May 22, 2014 8:52 am

domtronvox wrote:Hi, I haven't read through all 10 pages of posts but a number of people sound like they are describing (or thereabouts) the unit control mechanics of Globulation 2 [http://globulation2.org/wiki/Main_Page] a rts game that focuses on building up your base and creating units but you only have indirect control over them.
Globulation 2! Haven't played that in a long time... (years)
But indeed, its indirect control method would fit Factorio very well.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Grimtongue » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:02 pm

A lot of these "building and management" type of games become a tedium of micromanagement as my creations get larger. I love the idea of the "throne room" for those of us to enjoy things on the grand scale. I do hope that Factorio incorporates more RTS elements, especially a greater variety of base defenses and enemy types with a variety of abilities. I want to see more robots that use indirect control (reduces micromanagement) with varies AI research technologies. For example, an AI tech that makes my military bots form into squads before attacking large numbers of hostiles. It would be great if the aliens also formed into "armies" as the player's territory increases to a grander scale.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by carkasjak » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:46 pm

I'm picturing something like a Neural Interface tech, enabling a building that you can enter in the same way that you would enter the car or the train, which gives you more direct control over your logistics robots, allowing you to play more like an RTS. It could be completely optional, and have pros and cons vs moving around on foot.

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