Peace with Aliens

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bonob
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by bonob » Fri May 30, 2014 4:13 pm

I thoroughly support this idea. I usually prefer to play any game in a peaceful manner.

It doesn't feel immediate to adjust the gameplay in this regard without making a whole different game, the story as it is works pretty well: you come onto an alien planet, plunder it, pollute it, kill all life, burn all trees, as you grow more powerful and more resource-hungry :twisted:

But still, being able to play peacefully and cooperate with alien life would be tremendous.
One of my biggest wish for the game is that there are some incentives to build a complex transport network at a large scale. Right now, you do this, but only in your main base. There's no reason to manufacture anything out of your base.

One possible incentive would be to trade with aliens. But even better would be to use alien's 'buildings' to transform products. This way you can bring the transport network gameplay from transport tycoon games into Factorio!
Aliens would have some kind of buildings (probably slimy ones) to which you can bring some materials and get finished products / semi-finished (you'd probably have to pay them with some of your goods or theirs also.) You could have to transport goods amongst several alien bases to get the full chain.
The corresponding goods could intersect with existing chains or be completely independent.

Finally, if your cooperation with aliens is going great, you might be able to have some tame aliens who will build some kind of alien factory for you at your chosen location.
On the other hand, if you prefer to play the military way, you could wipe their base except for their factories, and power them yourself, so that you can access their manufacturing chains without cooperation. Or enslave some of them so they work for you in their factories.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Deathmage » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:39 pm

Bonob, +1. Maybe also if you are aggressive towards them they build defences as well. Thinking modified substation that zaps you if you get too close. :D

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Brood » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:28 am

I support the option to play peacefully too. Personally I like to focus on the building side of games. Still, how far are you (developers) willing to work on the aliens?

In the simplest, most immediate sense, aliens don't seem exactly sentient, so the only way I see something like this could happen is: we don't offend them too much by keeping pollution down and generally not getting in their way, then research some kind of food or alien candy to throw at them until they trust us enough that they won't mind us taking one or two artifacts every now and then.

On the other extreme, if there is a "smart" alien entity (it could even be the spawner itself or a new unit) you could go crazy. You could just implement trade with the aliens using artifacts as currency in exchange for something special that takes a lot of time and resources to craft; Or maybe those "artifacts" are actually a vital organ of their spawners, but instead they give us a biological product that opens up a chunk of the technology tree we can't get to by simply slaughtering them (say, bio-reactors, more efficient solar power, biofuels to replace oil), which would not only add a new way to win the game but also variety to multiplayer versus (bio-weapons, biters as allies); Or we could even change the direction of alien evolution, to a symbiosis in which they build bases with bio-factories of their own that produce something unique for us but we have to provide something for them as well. From there to the metaphorical stars.
As I said, it opens the doors to an entirely new level of content. This would of course take an entirely different amount of work, and I'm not sure if it fits the idea the developers have... I'm just throwing ideas to see what sticks :D

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Khyron » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:07 am

There are three main resources sinks in the game:
1. Research packs
2. Factory expansion (belts, machines etc.)
3. Combat equipment for the player.

I would prefer more ways to spend resources than less.

I also think breaking up player tasks between factory expansion, exploring (which is already nerfed by radar), setting up resource bases and clearing biter nests is a good way to keep the game engaging.

I'd vote no for peace with aliens.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Brood » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:38 am

Khyron wrote:There are three main resources sinks in the game:
1. Research packs
2. Factory expansion (belts, machines etc.)
3. Combat equipment for the player.

I would prefer more ways to spend resources than less.

I also think breaking up player tasks between factory expansion, exploring (which is already nerfed by radar), setting up resource bases and clearing biter nests is a good way to keep the game engaging.

I'd vote no for peace with aliens.
You have a point as long as we're equating peace with aliens to simply removing the need for combat and giving players the artifacts. Your point #3 could simply be replaced for something equally time- and resource-consuming to balance the reduced need for combat equipment... and there could always be partial peace, for example two slightly different alien "tribes", only one of which you can ally to in a given game, and also the potential prospect of multiplayer combat.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by The Phoenixian » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:05 pm

Khyron wrote:There are three main resources sinks in the game:
1. Research packs
2. Factory expansion (belts, machines etc.)
3. Combat equipment for the player.

I would prefer more ways to spend resources than less.

I also think breaking up player tasks between factory expansion, exploring (which is already nerfed by radar), setting up resource bases and clearing biter nests is a good way to keep the game engaging.

I'd vote no for peace with aliens.
While your worries valid, I think the Opening Post shows that the Devs already share them.

While I do have some qualms that a option like this will detract from development time on other areas of the game, I still think it's worth that price.

As long as a peaceful route requires either an equivalent amount of resources, infrastructure, and planning than the military route does (or even better: vastly more) I'd be quite happy with it. (I can't help but envision needing to build a mining base right next to a friendly alien base and being forced to throw in a couple dozen high grade Effectivity modules to keep the pollution down.)
The greatest gulf that we must leap is the gulf between each other's assumptions and conceptions. To argue fairly, we must reach consensus on the meanings and values of basic principles. -Thereisnosaurus

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Darthlawsuit » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:35 am

I would like to see an expansion that makes the Aliens intelligent and allows them to join together in alliances and attack me along with being able to trade my produced goods with some of them. When I trade those goods however it may arm them and make them stronger, but I gain alien relics without fighting and making them all angry with me.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Alfdaur » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:46 am

Maybe there is a giant artifact that is left behind by an alien race. The artifact would act like a factory that can produce alien artifacts, for a cost. (The easy way out.)

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by therapist » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:55 am

Having alien "research centers" that increase the attributes (speed, resistance, rate of proliferation) might be cool. They could be both a target for raids, or, a place to dump human objects for alien research to promote peace.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Alfdaur » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:12 am

therapist wrote:Having alien "research centers" that increase the attributes (speed, resistance, rate of proliferation) might be cool. They could be both a target for raids, or, a place to dump human objects for alien research to promote peace.
Haha, so you are saying that instead of us researching them, the'll research us? xD

Nice idea though. :)

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by gaabriel » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:34 am

For the bitters we could have a building/weapon/item that calms them down.
The building would spread a "calming" substance just like pollution is spread. This increases the bitter's tolerance for it and decreases their hostility towards you.

Another thing that would be nice if there ever comes a point where we get "intelligent" alien species:
The way you interact with the bitters/non intelligent aliens influences how the intelligent one sees you. Think of it this way: We humans wouldn't like some alien species if they were to slaughter our wildlife, right?

For the intelligent aliens, you could raise your reputation with them by delivering gifts (resources, for instance), then when your relation is good enough so you can trade you can further increase it by simply trading. This way you can have some leeway if you need to kill some wildlife if you're needing space. The relation between you and the aliens will drop but not enough for they to start a war/stop trading :)

On trading, it would be really cool if, say, you make a railway to their base, and use it to transport goods back and forth, you know, automating every single thing :P

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by therapist » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:00 am

gaabriel wrote: On trading, it would be really cool if, say, you make a railway to their base, and use it to transport goods back and forth, you know, automating every single thing :P
I don't know, you would think the biters might prefer a system that doesn't fart little puffs of pollution in their faces as it drives by. Belts seem kind of a silly option so maybe some kind of quad-rotor logistics bot on steroids could feed your trade goods to the aliens.

That idea sucks too but there has to be some kind of a pollution free solution, otherwise your not being very respectful of the local culture and this could cause clashes. Or train crashes.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by gaabriel » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:17 am

Maybe an electric train then?
I don't know. I just like the ideia of connecting bases (yours and alien's) with trains :)

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Kreq » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:09 am

I'd like to FARM THEM.

Treat those puny bugs as a resource.

I mean: a building that you can stockpile with food or some other kind of bait. That way you can capture bugs (as one enters, he's somehow trapped). That would need an infrastructure to carry them around, and fenced areas (maybe electrified) to store them. The alien in your small colony might lay down artifacts that you could grab, provided they have enough food or resources to craft them. I'm seeing something matrix-like, where you have all these cells full of aliens and these robotic gatherers that take out the artifacts.

Or: as you place this building near a nest, and feed the aliens, they get more and more friendly with you. They won't give you their artifacts (come on, they're bugs) but you can just live along eachother. This should be done for every nest. When you need the artifacts, either farm them or nuke them.

This would obviously require some food/farming mechanic that might be added, maybe in the later stages of the game.

What do you think?

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by JackGruff » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:05 pm

As long as the peaceful route would take much more effort and cunning to achieve, I think it is fine. The present situation is more or less what I mean: If you want to go peaceful, you need your efficiency modules and farms of accumulators and solar panels.

I don't think you should remove their dangerous behaviour without much thought. We forget that the player is also an alien, so it should take some time before the player is able to approach a base without being attacked.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by VinWij » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:44 am

As far as making peace with the biters go, I'm against it. I think it's good to have some ravenous force on the planet that constantly threatens the player and pushes him to defend himself properly. They should also not give any resources, because they are just that: a ravenous force threatening the player's life and work.

If you need aliens in, I'd go with something used in Startopia (which is an absolutely brilliant game in itself, look it up on GoG.com): a starport. As you produce more and more stuff, you'd be able to build a starport that allows trader ships to visit from various races. They bring the stuff you'd for instance need for advanced research, like the purple bottles, and require raw resources or specific products (I loved the interaction with such traders in Startopia, always a surprise which trader would visit and what he would bring. And there was Arona of course too ^_^). This would also create an excellent resource-sink that requires the player to keep expanding, which increases the friction between the player and the biters, since the further you stretch out, the harder it gets to defend. No need to get peaceful with anything on the planet, because that's where a big part of the fun comes from: increasing production and increasing the pressure on the planet's environment.

Also, and that's important too, keeping the biters the way they are is easier to program, rather than complex diplomacy-mumbo-jumbo with a race that only cares about biting your backside off. Factorio is about production, not combat. Combat serves as one of the resource sinks. Otherwise they'd at least have gone with a different name, that made the factory-part an interesting backdrop for some generic RTS about blowing stuff up and some 'diplomacy' with AI opponents.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Grimtongue » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:17 pm

I would like to see more "green" tech options on the tech tree, but they should be: (1) less productive then dirty tech, and (2) more expensive to build than dirty tech. I like the idea that the aliens would be neutral towards the player as a reward for using green tech. However, "Trading" and "Peace" really don't fit in the world of Factorio. I think it would be more appropriate to offer some "alien-friendly" techs that encourage the aliens to visit a location, such as a "feeding dish" type of structure. When the aliens visit, they will drop some of their alien goop, which the player can refine in a furnace to make "alien artifacts"

TL;DR I think the player should be able to feed the aliens. Then the aliens poop purple slime that the player can then smelt into alien artifacts.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by DerivePi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:02 pm

I'm all about making "peace" with the biters (smile)! I usually use the machine gun with piercing ammo for the little guys and Poison capsules for the worms! As for trade, I consider my ammo as fair trade for the Alien Artifacts.

This game needs the chaos provided by aliens. Without the aliens, there is no urgency to the game.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Creedless82 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:03 pm

Koub wrote: My first post here to agree with the idea that it would enrich a lot the game if there was a choice between several game styles, aka military/pollution/berzerk/Kill'em all vs. peaceful/nature friendly/communication/trade/cooperation. I have never liked the "war" part of games where fight is not the main purpose, and I'd love to be able to play the entire game without firing a single shot.
I think, Koub pretty much nailed it here, atleast for me.

Let's summarize what Factorio is about at the moment and correct me if I forgot something:
- The player is stranded on a foreign planet and the final goal is to build a Rocket Defense to secure the landing of your mothership
- Gather depleting resources ( and expand to find more )
- Build a factory to produce the huge amount of stuff needed for all the necessary research

As long as Biters in their current state are the only opponent "faction" in the game, Bug-like looking insects not using or having any kind of technology, i see no point in forcing the player to fight them just to get these DragonBall-like "artifacts" (seriously guys, what are these artifacts? Bug-poo?! ) in order to be able to achieve that goal set by the games story. Further more i don't even understand, why these Bugs even have got something that i need for my research at all. And trading with them wouldn't make sense either.

I'd suggest the following changes, if:
The game stays as it is, only Biters as opponent:
Remove Alien Artifacts, completely. Change the recipes of the science packs accordingly, may be involve some more of the products to make up for the lost challenge of needing to fight Biters.
Bring in the "green technology" arc to give the player the option between cheap, dirty and thus attractive to Biters (and so have to spend lots of ressources towards military stuff) or clean and expensive but Biters won't harm you (at the expense having to spend more resources to research and build clean technology, of course). Additionally, Biters could drop some sort of remnants that, once enough collected and researched, could be used to fortify players armor and weapons against them. That way, players who like the fighting aspect of Factorio still are being rewarded while those Bug-hugging Carebears ;) like me don't miss anything.
Another faction gets introduced:
Everything stays as it is, the other faction could get "paid" with your products to hunt and kill those bugs for you and bring you the "artifacts"

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by ssilk » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:17 am

I see the current alien artifacts as something - a placeholder - which is a gameplay element: all you wanted is to try to avoid contact with the natives, but then you are forced to. You need to reasearch them, study their behavior and so on.

The question for me is: is it possible to get alien artifacts without fight?
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