Hidden ores

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Re: Hidden ores

Postby mrvn » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:25 pm

This talk about hidden or infinite ores made me think.

In RL people first found coal, iron and copper on the surface. Then they started to dig big pits to mine it and later underground mines. Wouldn't it make sense to start with the simple burner mining drills just scrapping the surface and exhausting the surface deposits quickly. Then the electric mining drill (or advanced burner mining drill) can go deeper and last a new "deep mine" is added that goes even deeper and gets the last of the resources.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby thetoolcrafter » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:18 am

kovarex wrote:Later in the game (advanced technologies would be needed for this), the player could start with underground mining, this would have 2 phases.

Searching for resources
Underground resources wouldn't be so easy to spot, the player would have to do special drills to scan the nearby underground, when he finds something there, specialised mining drills that mine underground could be used there.

Some of the resources could be found only in underground.



I love this idea, i really do, but i feel that if this was added, the game would feel minecraft-esque and it would totally change the game. I feel that factorio is unique right now, and i think if this happens, although it would be cool, it would be turned into a more 'common game'. Factorio is a 2D sprite game, so the game design would have to be changed. Dont get me wrong, I love this idea and would love to see it implemented, but i think it would be very hard to implement well
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby Alien_Squasher » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:11 pm

Personally, Devs, I'd like to see a series of procedurally generated z levels, even with an option to build upwards like a skyscraper or something. I think this would add a depth that, (no offense) has been lacking for a little while, but I would also like to caution you against making this Z level system too complex, as it would detract from Factorio's beautiful contrast of simplicity in theory and complexity in reality. I guess a good way to go about this Z level system would be to have several different aboveground layers, which would allow for mountains to be created to give the game a slightly more realistic feel, but at the same time keeping the amount of mountains generated to a controlled level where you have plenty of room to build factories on plains, (Like you do now) but mountains to build on and mine in, generally confined to mountain ranges with a few loose mountains here and there.. I personally think that the aboveground ore deposits are a good way to go about things, but I think you should make mines in mountains have a higher yield, albeit a slower mining speed until you upgrade your mining technology. and have the Z system work like this:
*Mountains which range from small hills to Mt. Everest
*A digging system which allows you to enter belowground levels via constructing a mineshaft, or other entry method, and have a number of procedurally generated levels belowground with cave like appearances, and each one of these levels acting like separate "worlds" with different appearances based on what Z level you are on (IE Lava lakes in Z -40 and underground lakes/rivers down to Z -39 and ores generated to the locale/Z number of that level.)
*A Skyscraper system which works similarly to the digging system in that you may place elevators/stairs/other entry methods in one floor of your factory that is walled using a separate kind of wall from normal ones (Structural walls?) that requires a closed shape with structural walls/gates that defines that there is a Z level above this, the only difference from the digging system being that you can see the regular world (Z 0) with a depth to represent that you are looking down upon it rather than it appearing flat.
*A mountain system that works exactly like the digging system, with the only difference being that it shows the normal terrain like the skyscraper system, and includes the ability to dig out of the mountain and interact with the world one Z level below where you currently are
*Bridging the gaps in the Z level logistics issue (IE getting an iron ore supply from a mine on level -19 to level 0 for smelting using something akin to the elevator system, all except with something akin to underground belts which utilize a certain length of x or y length to represent a belt angled upward in addition to the Z level climb (say 4 levels/belt) And for logistics bots/other bots you can either: use the mineshaft system or add in a special port for robots to descend/ascend. Same way for vehicles, and aliens.
*Mineshaft depth descent can be configured by clicking on it, and having a +- system for how deep you want to go. Same with the belts which ascend/descend.
As for the lategame resources I think that would not work. I think you should configure it where you have upgrades of mining technology in a single miner like the electric miner, that gets upgraded gradually like the weapons with a +x% for efficcency/speed instead of damage , and certain upgrades that allow you to tap into resources which you couldn't have harvested before, (IE take titanium ore from Bob's mods, and make that require a titanium extraction upgrade be researched but still keep the one miner mines all approach) And I know this sounds a lot like the modules system, but think about it, as time progresses you should theoretically, become better at mining things faster and getting more from a resource node than you did at the beginning if you research it, without the need to manually upgrade things using modules. That being said, it would also complicate things because making something more powerful as you go along makes it consume more energy, which is why I am going to suggest that you implement instead new modules for mining certain late game ores and then a miner module capacity upgrade system instead of hard upgrades, as this allows for a more modular (Pun intended :lol: that was awful for a joke...) approach, and allows for technological innovation as well. I also encourage you to expand the module system further to represent more technological innovation.

However, whatever you decide to do I must ask that you please keep a setting implemented in the world generator for a flat world, like it is now, because some people like that, and various settings for mountains and an enablement/disablement of the z system. This way you hit the largest sales base in addition to making a great game that many people can enjoy, and so in the end, we all get what we're asking for with the Z system.

Thanks for reading, Hope this helps,

Thad.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby OkariDraconis » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:03 pm

Is this idea still up for consideration? IF so, I vote yes. Provided the Hidden ores work similar to oil.
Please review this idea when you get a chance
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby Ingolifs » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:03 am

I feel like i'm a little bit late here, but I had a similar idea recently.

In late game, a shaft mine becomes available. It can be placed anywhere and will produce ores at a slow rate. Most of what it produces would be stone (~80%), with the rest being coal (~10%), iron ore (~5%), Copper ore (~4%) and uranium ore (~0.1%). These relative amounts could be variable depending on location and over time.

As time goes on, the amount harvested from a shaft mine decreases. It shouldn't decrease exponentially (because then only a finite amount of ore could be extracted, due to how the exponential function integrates), but rather a function like yield=1/time, whose cumulative doesn't have a limit as time -->infinity.

To avoid shenanigans like deleting and replacing a mine to reset the time, this depletion could be calculated on a per chunk basis.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby Deadly-Bagel » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:23 pm

Yeah but with only 5,000 iron wtf am I going to do with 80,000 stone? =s
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby Ingolifs » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:01 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Yeah but with only 5,000 iron wtf am I going to do with 80,000 stone? =s


Make a really big castle?

The management of 'waste' resources isn't really a huge part of the game currently. There is a small window where the player has to deal with consuming heavy and light oil to keep the petroleum flowing, but once you get access to cracking this becomes irrelevant. If you want access to these 'free' ores you have to find ways of storing or using the excess stone and coal.

I would also support making stone more useful through Stone bricks -->Silicon -->Circuits and Solar panels. I suspect someone's already modded this.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby wesalius » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:32 am

mrvn wrote:This talk about hidden or infinite ores made me think.

In RL people first found coal, iron and copper on the surface. Then they started to dig big pits to mine it and later underground mines. Wouldn't it make sense to start with the simple burner mining drills just scrapping the surface and exhausting the surface deposits quickly. Then the electric mining drill (or advanced burner mining drill) can go deeper and last a new "deep mine" is added that goes even deeper and gets the last of the resources.



I second this. On the surface should be only brown coal, that provides less energy per unit, it would be cool if with game progress player would gain access to mining which would give him black coal, which gives more heat/energy per unit.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby Complex » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:50 am

Hi,

Please don´t add any Z-Leveles. Right now this Game requires you to carefully think and plan a clever layout in an confined two-dimensional space and that creates the special magic!

I could go with the idea of deep mines (as a building on the surface generating ore) but would refrain from adding to many new resources. it´s also part of the charm to facilitate everthing out of such few basic components with ever and ever more complicated factory-chains.

Maybe a deep mine could produce a infinite, but relativly slow output, giving you a logistigs problem to collect enought ore all over the map.

BR,
Daniel
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby Criperum » Wed May 10, 2017 10:37 am

I see hidden resources this way:
1. Seismic analizer. This building shows the distance to the nearest underground deposit.
2. Player has to Triangulate the deposit position using several analizers
3. Deep drill, of course, to mine the ore
4. Hidden ore is uranium. And it is removed from the surface. So you have to search for it to be able to use nuclear power.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby WimeSTone » Wed May 17, 2017 7:15 am

If by any chance this idea is still in consideration, I vote yes.
Cave systems or many planes, even asteroid mining - any of those will do.
But those planes should be very limited in size or game will take too much time to simulate. Just remember how autosave goes ultraslow on really big factories.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby mrvn » Thu May 18, 2017 11:28 am

WimeSTone wrote:If by any chance this idea is still in consideration, I vote yes.
Cave systems or many planes, even asteroid mining - any of those will do.
But those planes should be very limited in size or game will take too much time to simulate. Just remember how autosave goes ultraslow on really big factories.


From a technical point they can be totally unlimited in size if they are generated on demand like the main map. What matters is the number of chunks you have explored.

From a game play point I would expect a Cave system to potentially cover the whole map and be unlimited. But an asteroid mine should be limited to reflect smaller and bigger asteroids. If you need more space then send another rocket to find another asteroid.

Note: For all those that love trains wouldn't you love SPACE TRAINS even more? Little supply rockets going from asteroid to asteroid.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby CPT. NECkBeard » Mon May 22, 2017 2:17 am

Cesium, Francium, Silver, and Diamond.

WARNING: This is a very long post and has a lot of factual information about the elements listed and has ideas about what I think should be added into the game. Please read fully before critiquing on any of my points and/or ideas,Thank you.

-Cesium:
it's used to make special optical glass which could be used to make something like a telescope which could be used to see any incoming asteroids that could have "rare ores" or maybe a large lens that could focus the sun's light and boot surrounding solar cell's power output
it is also used in radiation monitoring equipment which could measure the surrounding area for potentially deadly doses of radiation(development idea)
it is also used to make atomic clocks which are some of the most accurate clocks around and are necessary in GPS satellites which could work like radars but cover a much larger area
it is also used to make many other compounds leaving a massive opening for future improvements and is highly reactive to a lot of materials and is never found in a pure state so you would have to build something like a cesium plant(dev idea)

-Francium:
hands down the most radioactive element known to man
its most stable isotope has a half life of 22 minutes and eventually decays to radium or astatine
this metal is very rarely found naturally and is mostly created using a nuclear reactor for research purposes
since it has no current use (since it decays so quickly) it could be used for anything the mind allows it to and can also add a purpose for the radiation monitoring equipment

-Silver:
being the best conductor of electricity it could be used to make a special cable that gives increases your total energy output by 5%, but for it to work all cables connecting a source to a consumer have to be made of silver for the boost to be active
Simple yet effective.

-Diamond/Carbon
Carbon fiber.
things made of carbon fiber would be faster and stronger and not take damage from slow moving objects (such as a barely moving car) or a weak creature that likes to ram into things(great new mob idea) but would break instantly is something faster than lets say 25 kph came into contact with it
you could also implement a new formula car which could be 2-3 times faster than the normal car but only have 100 health and it should take double impact damage if moving faster than 25kph
a carbon fiber remote controlled car with a camera could also be implemented for scouting out new areas for early game so you don't have to risk dying by those worms early game and should also be undetectable by enemies
it could be used to build airplanes which could work like trains only faster and more limited to what you can transport on them (ex: you can't transport oil by plane)

I would also love to see the addition of usable gasses such as Chlorine which can be used to make chemical grenades (ChemNades) that can be used to harm and deter enemies from the affected area and should also be combustible so it can be ignited with the flamethrower
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby jzr » Mon May 22, 2017 10:06 am

Underground mining sounds nice, but how about orbital mining?
We already shoot things into space. We can say that the planet has a belt of space rocks around it and send robots to mine it for materials that aren't present on the surface.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby mrvn » Mon May 22, 2017 11:49 am

jzr wrote:Underground mining sounds nice, but how about orbital mining?
We already shoot things into space. We can say that the planet has a belt of space rocks around it and send robots to mine it for materials that aren't present on the surface.


I really wish someone would mod that. Each rocket could have the option to find a new rock or go to an existing one. It should also have more space to put in a few stacks, e.g. inserters, belts, solar cells, electric miner for a minimum mining operation. Each rock should have a 2 special "chest" to exchange goods. One gets the contents of the rocket when it arrives and the other gets transfered to the rocket for the return flight. Those items would then end up at the rocket silo.
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Re: Hidden ores

Postby QGamer » Mon May 22, 2017 8:38 pm

Complex wrote:Please don´t add any Z-Leveles. Right now this Game requires you to carefully think and plan a clever layout in an confined two-dimensional space and that creates the special magic!


Complex summed it up quite nicely!
I am 100% for the idea of hidden ores, but I feel that adding Z-levels to the game (making it 3D in essence) would take away from the "2D game feel" that Factorio has. Deep mining should instead be in the form of completely invisible ore patches generated naturally like all of the others, and only mineable with special "deep drills."

As for what those ores should be, gold and silver would be good to use to make electronics (maybe another Advanced Circuit recipe requiring Gold Cables instead of Copper). Tungsten, titanium, and other strong metals could be used to make better military vehicles and buildings with higher resistances. As for diamonds and other precious stones, they would be useful in better mining drills (because of their hardness) and optics (because of the way they refract light, also Glass made from Stone would work too).
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