K2 + SE changes

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ptx0
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K2 + SE changes

Post by ptx0 »

anyone else think they're unnecessary? brought it up on the discord and was muted after the moderators got offended that someone didn't think it was perfection. personally, requiring prev inserters while not a big deal logistically, shows that the changes weren't really done in the spirit of K2

requiring silicon in space when glass was already required... why? what do we gain? nothing, except shipping more crud up to space and refactoring existing bases.

maybe it's only because my save had 3700hrs on it. the response is "don't update". doesn't that mean I don't get all the fancy stuff that might come down the line?

at this point, it's probably just better to play SE without K2.

either alone? fine. together? big mess where one person's idea of "more cohesive" is another person's unnecessary tedium.

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Re: K2 + SE changes

Post by ptx0 »

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i guess this description of the "dev team" is perfect. they left it in Raiguard's hands and he just does whatever he wants with it. some original K2 thing like Inserter parts? he says he's not a fan of. i guess K2 will evolve along with Raiguard's ego


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after all, he even took it and put it under his own name, lol

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Re: K2 + SE changes

Post by Raiguard »

Ok, first off, that description on the mod portal is entirely a joke. I don't do whatever I want, I take great pains to align with Krastor and Linver's vision. I have immense respect for what they created, and I am honored to have been given the opportunity to maintain it. I will change the mod portal description to avoid any more misunderstandings.

You misinterpreted that conversation about the inserter parts. I love the K2 inserter recipes. I was agreeing with you that I don't like the inserter recipes in the new K2SE integration. I'm sorry for not being clearer about that.

Linver willingly transferred ownership of Krastorio 2 to me, and was the one to suggest it in the first place. He and Krastor have moved on, and wanted to retain zero responsibility for the mod. They wanted someone to keep it alive but didn't want to work on it any longer. It is not to stroke my ego.

As was stated in the Discord several times, you had ample opportunity to provide feedback during the development of the new integration, but you chose not to. Now that it has been released, we wish to keep major changes to a minimum. We don't want to break everyone's factories more than once.
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Re: K2 + SE changes

Post by ptx0 »

Raiguard wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:19 pm
Ok, first off, that description on the mod portal is entirely a joke. I don't do whatever I want, I take great pains to align with Krastor and Linver's vision. I have immense respect for what they created, and I am honored to have been given the opportunity to maintain it. I will change the mod portal description to avoid any more misunderstandings.
sorry, that wasn't obvious, considering all the recent changes and how cavalier you've seemed about them
You misinterpreted that conversation about the inserter parts. I love the K2 inserter recipes. I was agreeing with you that I don't like the inserter recipes in the new K2SE integration. I'm sorry for not being clearer about that.
to be fair, i didn't do it intentionally. you simply said you didn't like the recipes, I figured you'd actually tried the compatibility changes before integrating them. which would mean you were cool with them.. but I didn't realise that these changes were pushed past you to the SE project for inclusion in the post-process mod instead. my assumption was that the changes went through you for integration in the K2 mod itself.
Linver willingly transferred ownership of Krastorio 2 to me, and was the one to suggest it in the first place. He and Krastor have moved on, and wanted to retain zero responsibility for the mod. They wanted someone to keep it alive but didn't want to work on it any longer. It is not to stroke my ego.
i didn't realise Linver was a person, i thought it was a organisation :?
As was stated in the Discord several times, you had ample opportunity to provide feedback during the development of the new integration, but you chose not to. Now that it has been released, we wish to keep major changes to a minimum. We don't want to break everyone's factories more than once.
i did supply feedback, but not in the given thread. i even pointed out some of the suggestions, i'd already created add-on mod to handle. like the bio lab modules etc.

of course, any feedback that was given was met with "this is being done to make a more cohesive experience"

in any case, thanks for your time you spent writing a response here.

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Re: K2 + SE changes

Post by Kyralessa »

ptx0 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:29 am
anyone else think they're unnecessary? brought it up on the discord and was muted after the moderators got offended that someone didn't think it was perfection.
A grossly unjustified action, as I'm sure you expressed yourself with your usual level of politeness, patience, and humility.

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Re: K2 + SE changes

Post by blazespinnaker »

I tried K2 + SE, but found it added very little for SE. There seems to be a great deal of tedium added by K2 and not much in the way of added complexity.

SE is cool in that 'copy paste' factorio style production and repetitive actions have been minimized to very little (except maybe some late game stuff).

As an example, it's my opinion that K2 made a judgement error in messing with Nuclear like they did. SE is clever to reserve its intrusion for what it adds (eg, space pipes) and avoids increasing any tedium in the base game.

You might argue that military research changes SE did contradicts this perspective, but I found that military tech is largely irrelevant in SE. Honestly, with base game logistics + artillery islands, the changes weren't really that necessary, though sure, increasing the research difficulty did add a degree of tedium to the base game and I'll admit wasn't one of my favorite SE decisions. Plague Rockets help a bit.

My suspicion is that the problem of logistics and artillery islands will be addressed in the DLC which will have flying overlord type mobs which can reach islands. This will potentially be a huge change to PvE Factorio, I imagine. At that point, the changes that SE adds regarding things like artillery range research will be rather irritating and hopefully SE mod dev will find an appropriate response.

Bottom line though, it felt like K2 seems to be of the bias that repetitive actions are a good idea and it likely got that opinion from Vanilla, while SE seems to be biased towards the opposite. SE also mostly avoids cheap giveaways that you find in K2 (silly underground pipes, crazy storage, loaders, etc). These types of giveaways just reduce over all complexity which in the end increases the share of copy/paste/repetitive play.

That said, I did like pollution management in K2 and thought that was very cool, though unfortunately did require a bit of copy/paste. I do wish there was a way to get this into SE without any of the other changes. Better early game pollution management would be a nice way of offsetting the military tech changes that SE does.

Also, to be fair, I'm sure SE has been greatly inspired by K2 (which obv is inspired by vanilla) and that this post is completely ignorant of the legacy of mod building. They are all giants in their way, and we all stand on each others shoulders.

One thing that does surprise me though is how little actual research goodies are added by these two mods. Mostly it just seems like research to research. There are lots of little, trivial research goals to implement that can be added that certainly wouldn't unbalance the game. No need for insanely fancy graphics on these as it isn't something you'll be looking at for very long. Maybe just a handle of base graphics, each which can be tweaked with numbers or something for additional research levels (like crafting speed in SE)

Research queueing in particular should be an early research goal, I think. If there is a way to increase the queue length that would be quite nice. Another alternative would be some way to make research combinator driven, though likely hard to make UX friendly. Research queue management / prioritization is an interesting puzzle in Factorio and likely could be better exploited.
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