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Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:38 pm
by ssilk
There are tendencies to make the train more safe. See https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=7685
Ok, the train is dangerous. But if you follow some security aspects like "don't walk on the rails", "zoom out, before you cross the rails", "don't jump off train" etc. this is in my eyes not much risk. See also https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... the_tracks

And to the danger of mixing too much into this simple question:
The obvious question is: can the character be killed by the train?
But there is a very basic question behind this: Can the player be killed by it's own creations?

My opinion here is "Yes, of course". Factorio is some kind of real world simulation, and dead looks up on all ends.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:50 pm
by Nova
I think the poll is not clear and should be changed. Answers should be simple and direct, no "I think" parts or something like that. Also they should go straight to the problem, not around it: Asking if the behavior about trains has to be changed, not about how people "feel".

I think we need some way to stop trains from killing people. Being killed by train is "Args, come on, really??? >_<", and that's bad, but I don't think we should entirely remove it. People should have a real possibility to counteract killing trains, not something which just removes the possibility.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:49 pm
by sillyfly
For me the frustration in being killed by a train stems mostly from the lack of knowledge of whether a train is close.
In real life, I could probably easily see a train coming from 1km on a straight rail, so it would easily be avoidable. In Factorio on the other hand, even zoomed out to the farthest zoom probably gives me about 100 tiles in every direction, so roughly 100m.
No, I don't say we need to allow zooming out more, but having some indicator that a train is coming would be both helpful, realistic, and save people from dying stupidly.
How about a marker on the edge of a visible track segment which states how far a train is, if it is say <1500 tiles away?
Here is an illustration of what I mean:
train-example.png
example
train-example.png (418.41 KiB) Viewed 20624 times
The text would automatically adjust to the border of the visible screen, and would update at reasonable intervals (say, every 10 tiles?)

This should hopefully make it much easier to avoid trains, while not being "cheaty" or "unreal".

Edit: Er, zoomed _out_, not in :)

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:17 pm
by Khyron
I didn't vote because...
a) I think the train should 'be able to' kill the player. It's a realism thing. It would be counterintuitive for some game mechanic to prevent your death. This is sort of like option 1, but my answer isn't really "I want more death".

b) I want the ability to control my machines the same way I have control over the rest of my factory. I manage risks by building walls and turrets; setting resource buffers; creating redundant power supplies etc. Why not have the ability to manage trains as well? This is sort of like option 3, but I don't want the game to wrap me in cotton wool and protect me from harm at all costs. I want the ability to manage and control those risks.

edit: sillyfly's suggestion is pretty good. Perhaps a little train icon instead of the words "Train <distance>", and the little icon grows as it gets closer. My only complaint is a subtle one - it is a meta-solution. It solving the UI portion of the problem while not actually granting me any control over the situation.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:42 pm
by Nova
I like sillyflies idea, but would adjust it slightly: Remove the words and numbers, just add a small icon (of a train?). This would just show: There's a train. The whole idea would make it even easier to look for a train. Of course this is only shown if the train is "pretty close". Exact values have to be evaluated.
I prefer not having so many words around the screen.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:12 pm
by ssilk
@Nova: It's not a poll, it's somehow a tendency, I want to see: Is this only a problem, that some have, or is this a general problem?

@sillyfly: This idea looks good at the first glance. It has it's problem, when you have many rails, or when you have many trains. Than this display should show what? It won't work anymore.

What is the problem to zoom out before you cross? Do you forget it, is it to nasty, don't you see the train comming, is the screen resolution to low... I ask cause I want to see the real problem behind it. :)

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:14 pm
by n9103
Among most modern desktops, I use a smaller than average resolution (1280x1024, most run 1080p or above, even laptops) yet I've never been run over when I remember to zoom out even half the max, and I haven't forgotten to zoom out in months.
So I'm really lost on how a supposed max zoom out isn't enough warning.
The only way I can figure would be if they're using trains that go faster than the (last I checked) current gameengine limitation of about 115.

I got my roadkill badges a few times when the trains were introduced, and that taught me a good lesson.
You have to check in the distance when crossing, and not just looking at the ground right around you.
Funny how that's just like in real life. :roll:

Why is it apparently a problem for new players to figure this out, either from advice and/or reasoning, or learn from their first-hand experience?
Particularly in a game that doesn't even have permadeath, and by default, only penalizes you two minutes of lost gameplay.
I couldn't tell you for sure, but I imagine it's got to do with gaming and social issues beyond the scope presented.


I don't think trains should really become more dangerous, but they definitely shouldn't be less dangerous.
I would like greater control over their automation, like load, station, or fuel sensing, but that's as far as I would go in changing how they're controlled.
But designing trains to specifically avoid the player? It's a solution looking for a problem
It's overkill being that the only places they can travel is clearly marked, and it was a conscious decision to ignore the tracks you crossed when you became roadkill.
If I'm setting up machinery next to an active rail line, I don't want even more UI clutter moving everywhere. I already know to be careful and minimize possible train exposure, and having UI elements popping in and out whenever I'm moving near rail lines would only serve to distract me from whatever I deem more important at the moment. (Be it laying out the machinery, kiting biters into a possible killzone while avoiding the same, or just scouting for newly settled bases, or newly revealed ore patches while at max zoom.)

Should we ever have automated cars and trucks, that would be different, since they wouldn't (necessarily) require pre-laid routes/roads/whatever, and could have much more variation on their travel paths.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:11 pm
by keyboardhack
I think the current mechanics behind the train are mostly fine as they are, but they do have their flaws. The logic behind how much damage a train does, makes sense when the train is small or is moving fast. But if the train is long and slow then the damage is really wierd. Y

You can be killed by a long train going 10km/hr by scratcing the side which really doesn't make much sense. It would instead make more sense if the character was pushed to the side if the speed is low enough and the kinetic energi high enough. Now you might wonder how you get hit by such a large train when it's moving so slow, but the fact is that even scratching the trains side when trying to enter it og leaving it can get you killed and it's not hard to do that with the speed of the power armor.

That's how i feel about the train damage.

Happy New Year to all of you :D

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:17 pm
by Nova
n9103 wrote:The only way I can figure would be if they're using trains that go faster than the (last I checked) current gameengine limitation of about 115.
Trains can go way over 200 km/h.


Well, it's the same for me, n9103. Not killed by trains since... ages. But I know how frustrating it would be, so I try to help the people who get killed.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:46 pm
by Garm
maximum speed (1 engine) is 260km/h

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:29 am
by sillyfly
@ssilk: As I said, even when zoomed out to the max I only get about 100 tiles in every direction, which to me doesn't seem enough some times, and surely isn't realistic! Try going to the nearest straight rail to your home, and see if you can only spot the train when it's 100 meters away!
When there are multiple trains on the same track it should only show the closest on each track, and as Nova said - it is entirely possible to make it more minimalistic. Maybe just a bar with green if train is >500 tiles away, red if train is <500 tiles away, or the length of the bar could be related to the distance.... Of course this could all be tied to a configuration, like inserter arrows etc. So you could have it on or off, or tied to your Alt-mode display.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:50 am
by Xecutor
IMHO train horn when train comes near player is enough.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:21 pm
by Nova
Sorry, no, thank you. Walking near a train station would be very annoying.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:26 pm
by SHiRKiT
Nova wrote:Sorry, no, thank you. Walking near a train station would be very annoying.
Only if a train is nearby.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:34 pm
by sillyfly
I think what Nova meant, and I tend to agree, is that just walking around a train station without meaning to cross it would drive you mad.
Think about that - you are walking around the station, just doing maintenance - maybe adding a few belts or walls, with no intention to cross any rails, but because it is a station there are trains zooming in and out all the time - it would be really annoying to hear all those horns!

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:04 pm
by Nova
It may be okay if you only have one train, but as soon as you have more than a few and build some kind of a big train station, than you need earplugs.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:33 am
by LordFedora
TBH, it's like that living by just one rail line, if there where multiple trains going past my house...

The ton of horns would be fine, if it wasn't a "near player" but a different signal that i could place, that made a noise (really, the TRAIN made the noise, but who's gunna tell :P)

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:56 am
by User_Name
I like the current behavior.
Early game, the train is deadly, but you don't have many of them.
Late game, train crashes into you and you walk away because of power armor.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:10 am
by ssilk
I have an idea: there is the debug mode, https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... Debug_mode
Use show_train_stop_point

At full speed this point is some screens away from the train, which makes it useful.

The idea is: If this point (and following empty space until the train) comes near to the player, the train will honk. "Near" depends on the players speed and direction: can he possibly run/drive into the train?

It won't honk, if the train speed is too slow (you won't die by full crash).

Btw: I think (not tested!) wether you die by a train depends on its size. A train with 7 wagons kills, even if you have power armour 2.

Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!)

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:40 pm
by sillyfly
How about having a simple whistle post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_post), like a signal, only cheaper, and whenever a train rolls by it (and the player is close enough) it will sound a horn. That way every player can use it however they wish.
I for one may like to put some around places I usually cross :)