Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

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How annoying is beeing killed by the train for you? How much are you annoyed to care for the train?

1 Want more. You have to look like in real life and this is really fun. :)
54
23%
2 Keep it the same. This is fun when the train comes deadly close and I have the autosave.
100
42%
3 Want some help. I think it's unfair to be killed without warning. (e. g. signals before crossing rails)
62
26%
4 Don't want to die. I really don't like it as it is now, cause I loose up to two minutes of the game.
7
3%
5 Train should halt for me. For me the biters are enough. Train needs to be save! :(
9
4%
6 I never played with trains or haven't been killed by train yet. (you can change opinion)
6
3%
 
Total votes: 238

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ssilk » Tue May 05, 2015 9:14 am

You forget, that with full speed a train needs 100 tiles and more to stop.

Make a test-drive: make a long round-track with two stations, place a signal every 20 tiles and let a locomotive drive automatically on it: The faster the loco gets, the more you see, that there are several yellow signals "running" before the train... imagine that like that the train "lengthens" with it's speed... It is indeed calculated like so. You can see a bit of that if you turn on debug mode https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... Debug_mode and switch show_train_stop_point on and watch the train, when he will stop before a train-stop.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by Neotix » Tue May 05, 2015 10:17 am

I didn't forget about it. It's game mechanic and it's depend on player how he place signals. If he make enough space between signals to stop even the fastest trains then it will be no problem. If he place signals too dense then it's error in cross design (same as dead blocks, traffic jams etc.). Player can choose compromise and place signals only to slow down train and gain time to cross tracks without crash. When train detect player on tracks and can't stop before him then use horns to alert player (alert should also spawn proper icon). It's all just playing the game mechanics and this is cool in Factorio.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by n9103 » Tue May 05, 2015 12:05 pm

Neotix wrote:What if player mute sounds in game because he want to listen to music while playing? He should be forced to enable sounds or he lose game functionality?
Until/Unless there's a deaf option or mod added, then yes, they should lose function.
Games are rarely, if ever, intended to be played without sound enabled.
If the player decides to mute the game, they are the only person that has a burden of that action.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by Neotix » Tue May 05, 2015 12:53 pm

Wrong. If the game mechanics based on the sounds or sounds are strongly related to the mechanics of the game (stealth games, shooters etc.) then yes, the player should lose functionality when he mute the sounds. But Factiorio is not that kind of game. The whole mechanics of the game is independent of sounds and adding one feature based on sounds makes no sense. The game should be consistent in every aspect.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ssilk » Tue May 05, 2015 3:47 pm

See the poll. There is not essential need to hear the sound. :) And there will be eventually other things added in 0.12, that make sound (new circuit network stuff).
And we have all needed stuff completely finished in the game: There are the mechanisms with the gates. If the rail would be a gate and would open for a player or vehicle and a train comes with his "simulated elongated head" (see above) within this zone it will horn you. Loud!

I think it could be real, cause most of us was already already killed nearly and knows, this feels like "huuuu... that was near..." and sound will support this, cause it is really not much more time you have then.

And if not, cause he turns sound off: Well, then the game is just as yet.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by Cordylus » Thu May 07, 2015 12:18 am

Simply add to the sound settings an option: "train horn volume".
You would make it less loud or turn it off at all.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by oliveawesomesauz » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:13 pm

I have no problem being cautious, but I would rather be able to move around my factory mindlessly, because usually when I am travelling my mind if focused on what I am doing next. I have ADHD, so paying attention to trains is annoying to me.

I like to put 4 chain signals in a row at crossings. Four of them together is very visible. However, its not perfect, for a few reasons: Firstly, for two or more tracks together, the signals are not coordinated, which means I have to do more mental processing to determine if it is safe to cross. Secondly, the colors of the signals are bad for my intuition. When crossing a track in a car/tank/on foot, red is good (usually), green is okay as long as the distance to the previous signal is far enough, blue is ambiguous, and yellow is very dangerous. Notice that none of the colors really mean "completely safe". This is very different than what the signals mean when driving a train or driving a car IRL: green is good, yellow is dangerous, red is very dangerous.

Finally, signals are problematic if you don't have enough lead space (distance to the previous signal) at a crossing. For crossings near track intersections or stations, the signals could change at the last moment, when your car/tank has too much momentum to stop.

I strongly disagree with any suggestion that the train should slow or stop when near the player. I do like that the train is dangerous and has a mind of its own. I want to be able to design and build a way out of the danger. My preferred solution would be grade separation. This would be great to solve other problems with train systems as well, since trains could go above or below each other. Another nice feature would be a logic-controllable gate.

While we wait for grade separation to be implemented (I hope something of the sort is planned), I think it should be possible to implement signals showing intuitively correct colors using mods. I'm going to attempt this tonight.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by n9103 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:38 pm

<insert necro comments here>
oliveawesomesauz wrote:Notice that none of the colors really mean "completely safe". This is very different than what the signals mean when driving a train or driving a car IRL: green is good, yellow is dangerous, red is very dangerous.
Completely off on that completely safe irl part, as a half dozen slim misses by dumbasses not paying attention will attest to. :evil: :|

As for the signals giving too little notice, you would need to space out your signals.
If your tracks are simply too dense in an area to permit that, then perhaps you should just consider that area off limits?

Lastly, what do you mean by "grade separation"?
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by oliveawesomesauz » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:03 pm

n9103 wrote:Lastly, what do you mean by "grade separation"?
Grade separation is when two roads/tracks/whatever are separated by being on different levels, that is, a bridge, overpass, tunnel, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_separation

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by oliveawesomesauz » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:08 pm

I guess my core complaint is simply that the colors don't correctly match my intuition: green for go, yellow for be cautious, red for stop.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by Hakusho » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:55 am

On the one hand i like this discussion, but on the other hand i would not want my trains to stop just because i cross the rails.

As ssilk said:
ssilk wrote:You forget, that with full speed a train needs 100 tiles and more to stop. ...
This means every train at full speed would start to slow down from ~100 tiles away just because i cross the rails.
Also there are so many people who like their belts compressed perfectly and want to have perfectly ratios. I think trains slowing down would mess up some perfect train scedules later. Because sooner or later people will try to make everything perfect.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ssilk » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:57 am

Hakusho wrote:On the one hand i like this discussion, but on the other hand i would not want my trains to stop just because i cross the rails.

As ssilk said:
ssilk wrote:You forget, that with full speed a train needs 100 tiles and more to stop. ...
This quote is out of bound. It is an answer to this:
Neotix wrote:What if player mute sounds in game because he want to listen to music while playing? He should be forced to enable sounds or he lose game functionality?
Of course train horn could be nice addition but not solution. The solution should be based on game mechanics.
We can stop trains by using signals, why not use them to stop train when player is on track? Then safe passage will depend on where player put that signals and where he want to cross the tracks.
So to come back to your quote:
This means every train at full speed would start to slow down from ~100 tiles away just because i cross the rails.
Also there are so many people who like their belts compressed perfectly and want to have perfectly ratios. I think trains slowing down would mess up some perfect train scedules later. Because sooner or later people will try to make everything perfect.
Exactly. I thought it was clear from the context of the discussion. This is (in my opinion and I'm nearly sure also the forums) the possible solution: Warn the player, that the character is on the rails. The train can try to brake. This is possible. But in my opinion it can be used also to sabotage the opposite player. :)

I could for example think for different train types, one without horns, one with horns, one with horns and brakes.


OFF-TOPIC: That would make sense and that is stuff, which a train can be equipped with: a train has something like a power-suit. Like the character: some free slots, where you can put "modules" in. A train should be equipped automatically with horns for example. So if you have one train assembly (one is enough for the whole game), it will also need to a "horn" for the recipe. Or "automatic human collision brakes". But there are much more important stuff and the game value of this off-topic is very limited, while the game value of the horns is in my opinion very high, cause even as very advanced player it happens that you got killed by train.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by Hakusho » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:55 am

ssilk wrote: This quote is out of bound...
Sorry, i just wanted to refer to the huge distance that was between a player and the train.

The idea to make it customizeable sounds nice. Maybe we would not even need to make different train types, but something like checkboxes to set options for this. Or make it like modular additions for trains? Craftable horns, brakes, lights for trains, cars, tanks that are kind of universal? ... guess this is part of another discussion
€dit: just noticed your Off-Topic part is similar to my suggestion .. whoops

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ratchetfreak » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:15 am

oliveawesomesauz wrote:I guess my core complaint is simply that the colors don't correctly match my intuition: green for go, yellow for be cautious, red for stop.
It also doesn't match how the block lights work IRL

normally yellow is shown behind the train and means there is a train ahead on the same track and you should slow down, That way the following train can avoid needing to stop for a red if it is faster.

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ssilk » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:32 pm

ratchetfreak wrote:normally yellow is shown behind the train and means there is a train ahead on the same track and you should slow down, That way the following train can avoid needing to stop for a red if it is faster.
Sorry, but that is not correct. :)

Green is generally shown, if the block is free.
Red is generally shown, if the block is not free (there is a train or wagon on it).
Yellow is shown, if this block is reserved for this train. That happens - to my observation - in this form: The train knows how long (distance) it will take to brake. This distances is looked ahead on the track. The blocks within this distance will be reserved for this train and the signals for this train turn yellow. All other incoming signals will turn red then, cause the block is marked as not free.

In other words: The yellow signals are BEFORE a train, not behind. :)
After a train there will be normally one red signal and all other signals are green.
And if there is a red signal within the breaking distance of the train (for example, because it was blocked by a train driving in front), the train immediately will slow down.


Example

Code: Select all

     r    r       g        g       y        y        y       y          r        g
===<XXXX=======================================================<XXXX==================
                    \\                  \\
                     \\ g                \\ r
                      \\                  \\
                       \\                  \\
There are 2 trains with high speed (let's say > 200 km/h) running from right to left. There are two junctions from down leading into the main track.
r = red signal, g = green signal, y = yellow signal


And the idea, which is favored within this thread is now: If someone is standing on this "yellow blocks" or might run on it (detected with the same mechanism as with the gates to open them in the right moment), the train will honk.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by n9103 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:47 pm

ssilk wrote:
ratchetfreak wrote:It also doesn't match how the block lights work IRL
I think you missed this part.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ssilk » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:52 pm

indeed...
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by vanatteveldt » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:15 pm

I read through the pages of this discussion, but I might well have missed something so sorry if I'm repeating things.

I think that:

1) Trains should kill
2) Players should be able to mitigate the risk of getting killed
3) These options should tie into existing structures where possible.

My suggestion:

1) Make it possible to connect circuit to signals to see if a train is in the block governed by that signal (i.e. condition on the signal color)
2) Allow a gate to respond to signal so a use can create a totally safe crossing (unless in a tank, they probably go right through gates? Sadly, youtube doesn't have train vs tank videos :))
3) Create a custom whistle signal that can be linked up to a circuit signal.

This creates possibilities for the player to design rail crossings as they see fit, with barriers, signals, lamps, etc. Block signal circuitry should also allow other cool automation, ie to prevent inserters from filling the crates while a train is in the station, creating a central indicator panel for station activity, etc. Audible signals could also double up as an intruder alert combined with some sort of motion sensor, or a "stock low" alert, e.g. when running out of coal at the power plant. Combining a motion sensor with controllable gates would also allow you to trap aliens by selectively opening and closing gates (DF style, I guess)

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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by ssilk » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:53 pm

This is essentially the result of the discussion.

To your suggestions:
1) This is already planned. Just to mention it.
2) Gates as you describe have a big question-mark on it, cause what if the gates go down, if you are between a bunch of tracks? There are many cases, where a simple gate will not work. There is also no need for special gates: The current gates can already control the existing gates via circuit wiring. So all you need is to get a wire from a signal/block and put it into a gate. The resulting logic can be arbitrary complex (or simple) - as needed for the players comfort.
3) The train should be enabled to whistle - that is described above in detail.

I count also on, that with 0.13 we will eventually have something like horns, signal lamps etc. But something like this could also be a useful fix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMsL8irAgOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPdC_VZzEoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlV_14zZi64
But I'm sure a modder can then do this also very easily... :)

:) Thank you for summarizing it.
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Re: Can the player be killed by train? (Train kills?!) ☸

Post by tehroach » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:48 am

Hi all I am new to the forum but have been playing since late 10.x,
this topic is really interesting to me so I would just like to add my 2c

IMO any player that crosses a track and is hit by a full speed train should be killed, regardless of armor or train size.

That being said I don't believe that the current system is perfect and could use some minor tweaks, because currently before power armor trains are deadly, but after power armor trains are completely safe.

This makes setting up trains before power armor far more difficult and frustrating, than once you have power armor, because before power armor if you want to adjust a train schedule you must wait around at the station (frustrating for trains with long schedules) or attempt a high speed board highly dangerous and often fatal (especially when you accidentally double click the board/disembark button), but once you have power armor you simply stand on the tracks in front of the train (because there is NO danger).

My solution would be (Trains KILL regardless)
However if you hover your cursor over a train or one of its parts, that train will not use the accelerator and begin to slow down and eventually stop.

This way would make it easier to get the sweet spot to bring up the train menu and allow you too:
-Hold a train in the station or Slow and stop a train anywhere on its route
-Making it safe to cross in front of and board
-However you would still need to watch out for "that other train" (Keeping trains dangerous)
Note: IMO Moving trains should still need their standard stopping distance and NOT instantly stop.


TL:DR
-Give me the ability to tell the train to stop by holding my mouse pointer over it.
-Make Trains KILL everyone.

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