My compact monster

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ks13
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My compact monster

Post by ks13 »

So i recently sent my first rocket in space. Then went to try an compact each production section. Since i don't like the production modules because they screw up the resource ratios, i went full on speed modules. This has the advantage to reduce the amount of buildings needed for the same output. Thus came out this little monster producing 90 electronic circuits per second. It requires "only" 2x45/s iron plates and 3x45/s copper plates. But it will supply enough green circuits to a 45/s advanced circuit production line
Screenshot 2021-07-04 025522.jpg
Screenshot 2021-07-04 025522.jpg (801.56 KiB) Viewed 806 times
Edit :
Current 90/s electronic circuit for reference
Screenshot 2021-07-04 030057.jpg
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wobbycarly
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Re: My compact monster

Post by wobbycarly »

The splitter/long-handed combination is cool. I wouldn't have thought it would be fast enough to feed that copper wire machine on it's own though...

ks13
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Re: My compact monster

Post by ks13 »

wobbycarly wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:28 am
The splitter/long-handed combination is cool. I wouldn't have thought it would be fast enough to feed that copper wire machine on it's own though...
You are right, it is not. I did change the layout of the blueprint so the 2nd copper belt is more accessible. What about this one?
Screenshot 2021-07-04 091347.jpg
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mmmPI
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Re: My compact monster

Post by mmmPI »

What about beacons ? you dislike them ? :D they help make stuff even more compact and offset the productivity-modules negative effect on speed !

For this particular blueprint, the amount of splitters i think could be decreased to make it less expensive to build, and also to make it easier for the computer to process what's going on :)

if you were to close the gap between the green circuit assembly where there is not a substation by moving them close to each other, you could then put the inserters that feed them next to each other too, and only use 1 pair of undergound belt to feed them both; would free up space in that middle 4 lane area to do some vertical belt unloading, belt weaving and underground belt magic to fill the 2 side of belts in the middle for the ouput with less splitters:)

ks13
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Re: My compact monster

Post by ks13 »

mmmPI wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:37 am
What about beacons ? you dislike them ? :D they help make stuff even more compact and offset the productivity-modules negative effect on speed !

For this particular blueprint, the amount of splitters i think could be decreased to make it less expensive to build, and also to make it easier for the computer to process what's going on :)

if you were to close the gap between the green circuit assembly where there is not a substation by moving them close to each other, you could then put the inserters that feed them next to each other too, and only use 1 pair of undergound belt to feed them both; would free up space in that middle 4 lane area to do some vertical belt unloading, belt weaving and underground belt magic to fill the 2 side of belts in the middle for the ouput with less splitters:)
I do like beacons but they take up a lot of space in order to have an effective setup. And this is meant to be compact. The current version is around 1/4th of the previous one. Adding beacons will either increase the space needed, or skew the ratios.

As for the other suggestions, if i post the build string here, can you show me what you meant? Because i am not sure i understand what you meant.

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Re: My compact monster

Post by kjagodka »

ks13 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:36 pm

I do like beacons but they take up a lot of space in order to have an effective setup. And this is meant to be compact. The current version is around 1/4th of the previous one. Adding beacons will either increase the space needed, or skew the ratios.
Setups with beacons can be compact as well.
Image
This green circuit setup also produces fully compressed 2 blue belts of green circuits, its same length, bit wider than yours. But it takes only 1.53 belts of copper, 1.43 belts of iron.
While this factory producing green circuits is bit bigger, overall space needed for producing green circuits will be lot smaller due to less miners and smelters needed to produce iron and copper.

ks13
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Re: My compact monster

Post by ks13 »

kjagodka wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:55 am
ks13 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:36 pm

I do like beacons but they take up a lot of space in order to have an effective setup. And this is meant to be compact. The current version is around 1/4th of the previous one. Adding beacons will either increase the space needed, or skew the ratios.
Setups with beacons can be compact as well.
Image
This green circuit setup also produces fully compressed 2 blue belts of green circuits, its same length, bit wider than yours. But it takes only 1.53 belts of copper, 1.43 belts of iron.
While this factory producing green circuits is bit bigger, overall space needed for producing green circuits will be lot smaller due to less miners and smelters needed to produce iron and copper.
That is one thing i won't compromise on : i don't like skewed ratios. It is why i am using only speed modules. Also, the electronic circuit unit is small due to simplicity but i am trying to make compact units so i can tile them on a grid. The next unit, advanced circuit, is quite bigger and adding beacons is not an option to me. Let me show you what i mean

This is the current unit i am using
Screenshot 2021-07-05 123905.jpg
Screenshot 2021-07-05 123905.jpg (2.05 MiB) Viewed 637 times
As you can see the input lanes are a bit complex due to having to split 1 belt into 3, and on each side.
But then i compressed that into this next one with only one side needing the connection
Screenshot 2021-07-05 123929.jpg
Screenshot 2021-07-05 123929.jpg (1.42 MiB) Viewed 637 times
This one has a bit of spaghetti but the connection is much cleaner for belts coming from the main bus.

Edit : i realise that the following is not obvious but :
- I do not impose resource limits, meaning i will mine out as much as needed
- I do not impose power limits, meaning i will use up as much power as needed

kjagodka
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Re: My compact monster

Post by kjagodka »

I recreated and throughput tested your design.
With blue inserters its throughput was only 55 circuts/s. Main bottleneck was copper wires.
Image

After replacing all the inserters with green ones, the througput increased to 88 circuts/s. In this case main bottleneck seems to be iron plates, because of the gaps on the iron belt from previous inserters single inserter cant grab the iron fast enough.
Image

I managed to make it fully saturated after splitting iron supply belts, so it has some internal buffers and sidebalancing green circut outputs.
Image

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Re: My compact monster

Post by mmmPI »

ks13 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:36 pm
can you show me what you meant?
yes, i tried !

Reproducing mostly what is in op but on the left part i showed what i meant by "using only a pair of underground belt for 2 machine when they are just next to each other".

I didn't check for material throughput though therefore i expect the design to have the same limitations as kjagodka mentions, i just meant the geometrical disposition of assembly, i re-used green/blue inserters as on the original design, the level of "stack inserter research" could make a design function in a save, but not in another, or even in the same save but later in game !

On the right part is a quick attempt at removing splitter while keeping the ouput balanced.
midgap2.jpg
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kjagodka
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Re: My compact monster

Post by kjagodka »

This is my compact-ish solution for green circuits. Its seem not to be as compact as yours, but its same order of magnitude of production density.
Image
Each module is 87x17 tiles and can produce red belt of circuits, which means 49.3tiles/production unit.
Your current setup (exluding spaghetti on the sides) is 45x45 tiles and can produce blue belt, so 45tiles/production.
So its within 10% margin in terms of density.
I am aware, that with productivity modules ratios are skewed and its hard to balance all the factories perfectly, but in my factory design all the bulk items are on global train network, so as long as I overproduce them a bit, every factory will have its needs fulfilled.

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Re: My compact monster

Post by ks13 »

Let me reply in order here.
kjagodka wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:51 am
I recreated and throughput tested your design.
With blue inserters its throughput was only 55 circuts/s. Main bottleneck was copper wires.
(snip)
After replacing all the inserters with green ones, the througput increased to 88 circuts/s. In this case main bottleneck seems to be iron plates, because of the gaps on the iron belt from previous inserters single inserter cant grab the iron fast enough.
(snip)

I managed to make it fully saturated after splitting iron supply belts, so it has some internal buffers and sidebalancing green circut outputs.
(snip)
You are right. I haven't yet tested the full throughput of the design since i was busy with my current bottleneck (rocket fuel), but i'm guessing i would have discovered the bottlenecks at one point. First i would like to thank you for testing it and even finding an improvement for it. Also, since you showed the improvement i would like to use it as is if you don't mind. I understand most of the improvement, though i would have thought that the splitters bending into the main line would be enough as a balance. In any case, many thanks.
mmmPI wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:11 pm
ks13 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:36 pm
can you show me what you meant?
yes, i tried !

Reproducing mostly what is in op but on the left part i showed what i meant by "using only a pair of underground belt for 2 machine when they are just next to each other".

I didn't check for material throughput though therefore i expect the design to have the same limitations as kjagodka mentions, i just meant the geometrical disposition of assembly, i re-used green/blue inserters as on the original design, the level of "stack inserter research" could make a design function in a save, but not in another, or even in the same save but later in game !

On the right part is a quick attempt at removing splitter while keeping the output balanced.

(snip)


I understand now what you meant. I did the design based on my current setup so i overlooked that part, but i would love if it could be implemented. I want to test first if the throughput would be the same with these changes. As i was proven that my design had flaws, i would be more cautious in the future with changes.
kjagodka wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:50 pm
This is my compact-ish solution for green circuits. Its seem not to be as compact as yours, but its same order of magnitude of production density.
(snip)
Each module is 87x17 tiles and can produce red belt of circuits, which means 49.3tiles/production unit.
Your current setup (exluding spaghetti on the sides) is 45x45 tiles and can produce blue belt, so 45tiles/production.
So its within 10% margin in terms of density.
I am aware, that with productivity modules ratios are skewed and its hard to balance all the factories perfectly, but in my factory design all the bulk items are on global train network, so as long as I overproduce them a bit, every factory will have its needs fulfilled.
I did watch a few tutorial videos about designing a megabase and such, and i understand the principles, but the base i am planning is a bit different. I wanted to make it modular and as such set up blocks into which i would put production units. I later discovered there is a name for that : city blocks. Though my base doesn't exactly follow the usual city blocks grid, i do have one and large/tall production units are not an option except for a few like a nuclear power plant. But even those follow some rules. This is why the unit i presented doesn't use beacons. I do have a mining unit that does use beacons. It's small enough that i can place several of them inside a single block and each produces 45 ore per second. And same for smelting.

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