Yet another science setup.
Yet another science setup.
Here's a science setup I came up with. It can handle most research topics (about 82%) without being bottlenecked by science pack production. I haven't run into steel production issues until later in the game, and I may need another smelter or two for it.
Re: Yet another science setup.
I really like that, it's quite compact and well designed - as long as 10 labs are enough. I like to double it (20 labs) though.
Re: Yet another science setup.
While steel is the current bottle-neck for this design, if you add more steel production you will find that smart inserters become the next shortcoming. That is because there aren't enough basic circuits being produced. It seems calibrated to build one of each science every other second. Smart inserters take 7 total circuits to build. Advanced circuits will eat 1/s, the inserters for green science will eat one every other second, and that leaves 2.5/s for smart inserters. They need 3.5 circuits/s. This is not including the speed multiplier from assembly machine tier, but that cancels out as long as all the machines are the same tier.
Re: Yet another science setup.
I have my science production calibrated in this setup to be producing one science of each type every 1/3 of a second. I chose this rate because the vast majority of science topics consume science packs at the rate of 1 pack per 30 seconds per lab or slower (which is what the 82% figure is referring to) and I have ten labs in this setup. I'm also neglecting the effects of modules and the lab efficiency research boosts. The only time I run into problems with smart inserters is when I am researching topics that consume blue packs faster than the expected rate (rare) or when my copper runs dry and stops green circuit production (quite frequent because I am bad, lol).
Re: Yet another science setup.
I love that setup. Enough so that I might drop my own and use this one instead. I don't have factorio running now, but I think there are a couple small imbalances.
You claim it is set up for 1 science of every color every 1/3 of a second. and I like that speed. But I don't see how you think this setup is balanced in all 4 sciences.
The RedSci recipe is 5 seconds, and you've got 3 assemblies of them, = 1.2 every 2 seconds (times machine speed)
The GreenSci recipe is 6 seconds, and you've got 3 assemblies of them = 1 every 2 seconds (times machine speed) (this is the speed I think you're talking about)
The BlueSci recipe is 12 seconds, and you've got 6 assemblies of them = 1 every 2 seconds (times machine speed) (this is why I think this is your intended speed).
I think the small excess on red sci is perfectly fine.
However, the ingredients for the Bluesci don't actually get produced at 1 every 2 seconds, that is needed to keep those BlueSci assemblies churning out at intended speed.
As far as I can tell the only thing set up for exactly 1 every 2 seconds is the RedCircuits (4 assemblies with an 8 second recipe)
1. Green circuit production for the blue science. You have 2 assemblers crafting at .5 seconds each, or 8 every 2 seconds
but your BlueSci production needs 1+2+4 for the inserters and 2 for the red circuits. meaning you need 9 every 2 seconds on that side.
Either we need to add another green circuit assembly (and have left overs), or get the extra green circuit every 2 seconds from the other side. The Green science side makes 4 green circuits every 2 seconds, but only uses 1. gotta figure out either a way to move the circuit production together so they share the resulting green circuits, or have a belt run the extras from the green side to the blue side.
2. Iron bar smelting. unfortunately I don't remember how fast the smelting happens, but you need 1 bar every 2 seconds, so if the smelting in an electric furnace is slower then 1 every 4 seconds, then it needs more smelting. The wiki sais the recipe is 17.5 seconds, and even divided by the 2 items/second speed that the electric furnace has I don't think that reaches a bar every 4 seconds per machine. I suspect there should be 4 if not 5 smelters.
3 battery production also doesn't reach 1 every 2 seconds, The recipe is 5 seconds (like the red science) but again i'm not 100% sure on how much a modifier the chem plant has vs the blue assemblies. taken at face value, you only make 1 every 2.5 seconds. and if you start using yellow assemblies or speed modules to speed everything up, you wont be able to speed up the chemplants, so I think this needs a third battery chemplant.
This setup also assumes that you're making the sulfuric acid outside you science production, but in that case you may as well make the batteries there and bring them in.
I think the system should depend on raw materials, which means making the acid right here on the science plan.
Once I get home and get a bit of time on Factorio, I think i'll try to get batteries made where they are, but make the sulfur and acid right there, and throw the steel smelting to the other side of the labs (where the Purple Sci is made) and see if I can get both of them up to .5 per second. makes the whole setup "fatter" which I don't like (I liked how the original design is long and skinny), but for now I cant think of a better way to balance it.
You claim it is set up for 1 science of every color every 1/3 of a second. and I like that speed. But I don't see how you think this setup is balanced in all 4 sciences.
The RedSci recipe is 5 seconds, and you've got 3 assemblies of them, = 1.2 every 2 seconds (times machine speed)
The GreenSci recipe is 6 seconds, and you've got 3 assemblies of them = 1 every 2 seconds (times machine speed) (this is the speed I think you're talking about)
The BlueSci recipe is 12 seconds, and you've got 6 assemblies of them = 1 every 2 seconds (times machine speed) (this is why I think this is your intended speed).
I think the small excess on red sci is perfectly fine.
However, the ingredients for the Bluesci don't actually get produced at 1 every 2 seconds, that is needed to keep those BlueSci assemblies churning out at intended speed.
As far as I can tell the only thing set up for exactly 1 every 2 seconds is the RedCircuits (4 assemblies with an 8 second recipe)
1. Green circuit production for the blue science. You have 2 assemblers crafting at .5 seconds each, or 8 every 2 seconds
but your BlueSci production needs 1+2+4 for the inserters and 2 for the red circuits. meaning you need 9 every 2 seconds on that side.
Either we need to add another green circuit assembly (and have left overs), or get the extra green circuit every 2 seconds from the other side. The Green science side makes 4 green circuits every 2 seconds, but only uses 1. gotta figure out either a way to move the circuit production together so they share the resulting green circuits, or have a belt run the extras from the green side to the blue side.
2. Iron bar smelting. unfortunately I don't remember how fast the smelting happens, but you need 1 bar every 2 seconds, so if the smelting in an electric furnace is slower then 1 every 4 seconds, then it needs more smelting. The wiki sais the recipe is 17.5 seconds, and even divided by the 2 items/second speed that the electric furnace has I don't think that reaches a bar every 4 seconds per machine. I suspect there should be 4 if not 5 smelters.
3 battery production also doesn't reach 1 every 2 seconds, The recipe is 5 seconds (like the red science) but again i'm not 100% sure on how much a modifier the chem plant has vs the blue assemblies. taken at face value, you only make 1 every 2.5 seconds. and if you start using yellow assemblies or speed modules to speed everything up, you wont be able to speed up the chemplants, so I think this needs a third battery chemplant.
This setup also assumes that you're making the sulfuric acid outside you science production, but in that case you may as well make the batteries there and bring them in.
I think the system should depend on raw materials, which means making the acid right here on the science plan.
Once I get home and get a bit of time on Factorio, I think i'll try to get batteries made where they are, but make the sulfur and acid right there, and throw the steel smelting to the other side of the labs (where the Purple Sci is made) and see if I can get both of them up to .5 per second. makes the whole setup "fatter" which I don't like (I liked how the original design is long and skinny), but for now I cant think of a better way to balance it.
Re: Yet another science setup.
I'm afraid your math is a bit off RoddyVR. You're neglecting the crafting speed of the various assemblers/chem plants. Remember that blue assemblers have a crafting speed of 0.75, and chemical plants have a speed of 1.25. To calculate the maximum ideal output of a recipe the formula is: Items/Time = Number of Producers * Items/Craft * Crafting Speed / Crafting Time. So with two green circuit assemblers I actually create 3 per second, rather than your calculated 4 per second. This may sound like a catastrophe, given that even your 4/second figure looks like it is insufficient, but there's another very important factor to consider: both my inserter and my red circuit production are overproducing compared to the actual demand for them for blue science pack production.
Remember that I have a production target of 20 blue packs per minute (I'm going to switch to production per minute figures since they're nice round numbers). In order to satisfy that, I need at least 6 blue assemblers, which have a maximum output of 22.5 packs per minute. So in order to satisfy my blue pack production I need to find out how much production capacity I need for each ingredient at a minimum of 20 per minute. To do this, we work backward from the items/time formula and round up (or use Foreman, which is what I did).
For red circuits you need four blue assemblers. This has a maximum ideal output of 22.5 circuits per minute.
For batteries, you need two chemical plants. This has a max ideal output of 30 batteries per minute.
For smart inserters, you only need one white assembler. This has a max ideal output of 60 inserters per minute. We only need 1/3 of this, and that has huge repercussions on green circuit demand.
Steel production needs 3 smelters. I didn't trust Foreman on this, which is why I only have two and ran into issues later in the game when just about every topic uses blue packs.
And so the process goes all the way down each chain until you hit raw resources. Because of the very low demand on smart inserters, that low demand trickles all the way down to green circuits, and you end up needing 40 greens per minute for red circuit production, and 140 per minute for the smart inserter chain. Total green circuit demand is 180 per minute, or 3 per second.
I don't know how speed modules will affect this setup, though, as I never use them in my research chain. I assume if you apply them evenly, and also make sure you're pulling your green circuits out efficiently it should be fine. I also don't know how the the lab efficiency tech affects it.
If you do manage to get the steel production moved to the other side, please post a screenshot. I'd love to see how you do it.
Remember that I have a production target of 20 blue packs per minute (I'm going to switch to production per minute figures since they're nice round numbers). In order to satisfy that, I need at least 6 blue assemblers, which have a maximum output of 22.5 packs per minute. So in order to satisfy my blue pack production I need to find out how much production capacity I need for each ingredient at a minimum of 20 per minute. To do this, we work backward from the items/time formula and round up (or use Foreman, which is what I did).
For red circuits you need four blue assemblers. This has a maximum ideal output of 22.5 circuits per minute.
For batteries, you need two chemical plants. This has a max ideal output of 30 batteries per minute.
For smart inserters, you only need one white assembler. This has a max ideal output of 60 inserters per minute. We only need 1/3 of this, and that has huge repercussions on green circuit demand.
Steel production needs 3 smelters. I didn't trust Foreman on this, which is why I only have two and ran into issues later in the game when just about every topic uses blue packs.
And so the process goes all the way down each chain until you hit raw resources. Because of the very low demand on smart inserters, that low demand trickles all the way down to green circuits, and you end up needing 40 greens per minute for red circuit production, and 140 per minute for the smart inserter chain. Total green circuit demand is 180 per minute, or 3 per second.
I don't know how speed modules will affect this setup, though, as I never use them in my research chain. I assume if you apply them evenly, and also make sure you're pulling your green circuits out efficiently it should be fine. I also don't know how the the lab efficiency tech affects it.
If you do manage to get the steel production moved to the other side, please post a screenshot. I'd love to see how you do it.
Re: Yet another science setup.
edit: improved version two posts down, just leaving link here
Moving the steel to the bottom was easy. I accidentaly built this thing close to an oil field, so decided to do the fluid handling there too (disconnected from main oil production for time being).
Only cheating on coal for now (from a box next to plastic production) cause i'm too lazy for now to drag coal through the old science facility that is between here and coal line.
haven't optimized the belt loads yet, need to figure out what uses how much iron (relative to eachother) and then have it all split in those proportions from one input line (right now I've got 2 iron inputs cause it was easier to start with). I'll do the optimizations I still think it needs later today (when not at work) and will post the result.
Moving the steel to the bottom was easy. I accidentaly built this thing close to an oil field, so decided to do the fluid handling there too (disconnected from main oil production for time being).
Only cheating on coal for now (from a box next to plastic production) cause i'm too lazy for now to drag coal through the old science facility that is between here and coal line.
haven't optimized the belt loads yet, need to figure out what uses how much iron (relative to eachother) and then have it all split in those proportions from one input line (right now I've got 2 iron inputs cause it was easier to start with). I'll do the optimizations I still think it needs later today (when not at work) and will post the result.
Last edited by RoddyVR on Wed May 13, 2015 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Yet another science setup.
Trying to figure out the math behind what the minimum requirements for the base supplies is for this set u:
is one full yellow belt of iron enough for example to make 20 of each sci pack a minute?
in total to produce one of each of sci pack you need:
31 iron (2 of that is for sulfuric acid, so 29 if you're pumping in ready made acid)
19 copper
2 coal (for plastic)
36 petroleum gas (6 for plastic, 30 for sulfur)
.1 alien artifact
so for 20 of each per minute a fully packed yellow belt should have enough iron (720 per minute iirc) which means I just need to find a good setup to have that one incoming belt be split up in this little research factory.
19 copper is too much for half a belt (was considering running plastic or coal on the other side).
I redid the left side a bit more to my liking and i'll post a picture as soon as I finish making the whole thing work with at max speed with 0 fast inserters (only yellow and red), not sure why I want it that way, but I do.
Just cant remember if 2 yellows are enough (without any stack size bonus) to feed cable into circuit assembly without losing speed).
is one full yellow belt of iron enough for example to make 20 of each sci pack a minute?
in total to produce one of each of sci pack you need:
31 iron (2 of that is for sulfuric acid, so 29 if you're pumping in ready made acid)
19 copper
2 coal (for plastic)
36 petroleum gas (6 for plastic, 30 for sulfur)
.1 alien artifact
so for 20 of each per minute a fully packed yellow belt should have enough iron (720 per minute iirc) which means I just need to find a good setup to have that one incoming belt be split up in this little research factory.
19 copper is too much for half a belt (was considering running plastic or coal on the other side).
I redid the left side a bit more to my liking and i'll post a picture as soon as I finish making the whole thing work with at max speed with 0 fast inserters (only yellow and red), not sure why I want it that way, but I do.
Just cant remember if 2 yellows are enough (without any stack size bonus) to feed cable into circuit assembly without losing speed).
Re: Yet another science setup.
Think i'm finished with it. Cant realy see anything else that bothers me. Well except that my iron supply has run dry, so gotta go deal with that and enough playing with the new science lab.
image
Edit: managed to get that last vertical belt line out of the setup, the whole lab is now two rows of assemblies/labs without any gaps (with a couple extra assemblies between the rows on the edges), and chemlabs/smelters to the sides of the laboratories. If I ever bother to wall it in i'll make a blueprint of it. If anyone is interested till then I can post the final screenshot.
Last edited by RoddyVR on Fri May 15, 2015 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Yet another science setup.
Looks nice. I like how you merged the battery and steel together. It's a lot cleaner than what I typically do. I think I'll also give the way you have your green circuit production a try on my next playthrough.
Re: Yet another science setup.
in that last screenshot of mine, the bottle neck turned out to be the inserter taking wires out for the redcircuits (talk about unexpected).
rearranged the inserters on that side a bit, and this is the version without a belt down the middle,
also if you move the polls in the middle a bit, you can take the extras that the red circuits doesn't use of the green circuits, batteries and steel, and through an underground belt feed that to a laser tower assembly placed below/between the red circuit and blue sicence assemblies.
rearranged the inserters on that side a bit, and this is the version without a belt down the middle,
also if you move the polls in the middle a bit, you can take the extras that the red circuits doesn't use of the green circuits, batteries and steel, and through an underground belt feed that to a laser tower assembly placed below/between the red circuit and blue sicence assemblies.
image
Re: Yet another science setup.
I know this is like over a year old, but I've updated the design for 0.14 and copied it to a blueprint string in case anyone wants to try it out:
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Re: Yet another science setup.
I still use this design Xolkiyr, so its much appreciated. I'll check it out soon.
Re: Yet another science setup.
I really liked your design; it's expandable (per 10) and it's compact. I only thought it didn't look very pretty 
. So inpsired by this, I also made one. It's not fully working yet (didn't build the oil stuff and don't have electric furnace) and it isn't balanced.
To bad science will be totally overhauled soon .
. So inpsired by this, I also made one. It's not fully working yet (didn't build the oil stuff and don't have electric furnace) and it isn't balanced.- 2016-12-22 21_42_56-Factorio 0.14.21.png (1.45 MiB) Viewed 16164 times
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Re: Yet another science setup.
Originally I was doing this setup because it can be expanded, just keep throwing in more buildings until it meets requirements:
Expandable Science
Eventually It does limit on the blue science filter inserter manufacture so I had to make this 115 lab setup (each with 2 x +50% speed modules):
Big Science