Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by quyxkh » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:52 pm

I'm seeing something different. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong things? When I do

Code: Select all

/c local s=game.surfaces[1]
    local fef=s.find_entities_filtered
    local function ce(t) return s.create_entity{name=t[1],position=t[2],force='player'} end
    
for k,v in next,fef{} do if v.type~='player' then v.destroy() end end
for x=100,600,18 do  for y=1,500,18 do ce{'substation',{x,y}} 
    for xo=-9,8 do
        for _,yo in next,{-7,-5,-3,2,4,6} do ce{'inserter',{x+xo,y+yo}} end
        for _,yo in next,{-8,-6,-4,-2,1,3,5,7} do ce{'steel-chest',{x+xo,y+yo}} end 
        end
    end end
on an all-sand map, when I first drop it the update cycle's ~20ms, and when I then `/c game.player.insert'electric-energy-interface'` and power it up, the update cycle goes to ~1.3ms, just as predicted, . . . but after that, mining the interface drops the cycle to ~0.6ms, putting it back restores it to the 1.3ms.


... edit: so, to finish the thought, going by that it looks like the right way to power down is to shut off the supplies first so all the inserters go idle, then cut the power to go for a deeper sleep. Just as Optera suspected.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by disentius » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:19 pm

Just tested.
As far as i can see, Optera had a point is right. If you cut power while entity is inactive, it stays inactive.
Cut power when inserters are moving, and they stay active.
EDIT:
Note that inserters waiting for circuit conditions do not go inactive.

Tested with F4-> show active state.
Cut power with nothing happening:
kovarex - inserter sleeping then power cut.PNG
kovarex - inserter sleeping then power cut.PNG (1.23 MiB) Viewed 1321 times
Cut power with active inserter:
kovarex - inserter active power cut.PNG
kovarex - inserter active power cut.PNG (1.68 MiB) Viewed 1321 times
Inserters seem to stay active, e.g. no red circle.

Blueprint testrig: (concept-variation with bots, substation aligned) :mrgreen:
Last edited by disentius on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by eradicator » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:37 pm

disentius wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:19 pm
Note that inserters waiting for circuit conditions do not go inactive.
I thought inserters put on a circuit clock to be slowed down *did* save UPS (not sure if by sleeping). Maybe becaues if an inserter is deactivated it doesn't need to scan the belt for items to grab?. Which would make it a "half asleep" mode i guess.
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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand [DEPRECIATED]

Post by zOldBulldog » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:13 am

disentius wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:18 pm
EDIT:
This one has many flaws. use at own risk!:) Ill post again after repairing and exhaustive testing, see comments below this post

Another build, reasonably ridiculous.
- bit more than 81/m
- reasonably compact
- no babysitting needed
- loads 40 U235 per reactor
- restarts automatically not always
- provision for U235 inserter missing a grab yes, but gets the rest stuck. yeccch
- all exess U238 gets routed trough
- tilable
Input: belt on the right. Put in all u235/u238
Output: two belts on the left: one 235, one 238
Base module:
Kovarex module.PNG

Input module:
Kovarex module-input.PNG

5x4 grid:
Kovarex V4.gif

I attempted to use this design in 0.17 but it did not work right for me. The issue is that the blue inserter on the main line at the bottom I not able to grab all of the U235 that flies by, causing part the 40 U235 to head out instead of going back in for the next cycle. Any idea of what might be happening?

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Durentis » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:04 am

Here's what I'm using in my current game. It does need to be primed, but as long as you don't have more Centrifuges than it can support early on it's good to go. Just add one at a time and it will start up and shutdown gracefully as belt-space permits.

The U-235 that rarely comes in on the outside lane from the Uranium Processing recipe isn't a problem. Also, you can wire it to disconnect from the power grid based on the combined chest volume if you want but I haven't bothered yet.

BeaconedKovarex.jpg
BeaconedKovarex.jpg (1.06 MiB) Viewed 1077 times

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by mrvn » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:43 am

disentius wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:19 pm
Just tested.
As far as i can see, Optera had a point is right. If you cut power while entity is inactive, it stays inactive.
Cut power when inserters are moving, and they stay active.
EDIT:
Note that inserters waiting for circuit conditions do not go inactive.

Tested with F4-> show active state.
Cut power with nothing happening:
kovarex - inserter sleeping then power cut.PNG
Cut power with active inserter:
kovarex - inserter active power cut.PNG

Inserters seem to stay active, e.g. no red circle.
Inserters, like everything using electricity, have a buffer. When power is on and there is more power for inserters than the buffer holds then it fills up. When the inserter does work it takes from the buffer, when it is idle it still takes the drain amount from the buffer. The inserter only stops when the buffer is empty.

Is that what you are seeing? I know I've had inserters stop with no power mid turn. They don't finish the turn for free.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by zOldBulldog » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:02 am

@mrvn, I am not sure if you were responding to Durentis or me. In my case what I see is that the blue inserter is not fast enough with stack size=1 to catch all 40 u235 from even a red belt as they pass by.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Fishy » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:50 pm

My Uranium Processing Facility.

Image
This just add ore processing row will
-self load
-self adjust based on needs/usage
-recirculate 238 produced from spent fuel cells.

The centrifuges will start up without any babysitting, but is ok to add 235 if you have some already. If left alone it will take about an hour for the first kovarex unit to start up, and couple hours for all four units to work non-stop. When all are running non-stop, there will be 120 U-235 tied up in each centrifuge (plus four in the reload box), but you will be making so much you wont notice. :)

I would say this is a late/end game setup that will run
-about 100 reactors
-10 nuclear fuel centrifuges
-about 13 atomic bombs per hour
-about 18-20 uranium ammo factories
All of this is non-stop production

Obviously, 100 reactors is quite a few, so you could make way more bombs, train fuel, and ammo out of this thing.

The only potential clog point is if you were only using 238 (for ammo) for hours/days/weeks/months and the 235 overflow box filled up (could be switched to a steel box if needed). The kovarex units will not run in this situation, so it would take a very very long time. The overflow box will reinsert 235 back into the system when there is need.

Just add Uranium ore to the blue belt on the right, There is also a port to attach sulfuric acid at the ore line. The finished products exit on the left (red belt), and the spent uranium cells are also belted in from the left (yellow belt). The Spent cells MUST be on the right side of the belt. All these are marked with Combinators.

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kovarex.jpg
kovarex.jpg (1.45 MiB) Viewed 1048 times

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Fishy » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:29 pm

This is an updated version of my Uranium Processing that is even more user friendly/foolproof.

It will now temporarily hold the U-238 while the kovarex units are priming,and will recirculate said U-238 back into the system as the kovarex units fire up. Slowly at first then full on when at least two of the units are going full bore. It will only hold the initial U-238 if you aren't using it otherwise for ammo or whatever.

Same sort of deal with the U-235 that slips through initially.

Also added an easy way to add any U-238 or U-235 you may have had already before into the mix. (on the left side next to the spent fuel cell belt).

All the feeds are marked with constant combinators.

A quick note on the priming process: It just uses splitters to distribute the U-235 into the korarex units, so when the first one fires up, the next will have 20 U-235, then the next 10, then 5, and 2 or 3 will have slipped through into the main distribution line out.



Edit: After some stress testing, I discovered one possible clog situation. The fix was very simple. Just switch the four filter stack inserters feeding the U-238 overflow chests from "U-238=8" to U-238=or>8". The Blueprint has been updated.
Image
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Quick easy change.jpg
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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by disentius » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:22 pm

@ zOldBulldog:

The changes to beltspeed and item density are the culprit here.
Stack inserters are no longer able to consistently pick up a stack from a blue belt. Red seems to work for now.
Weird thing: it is consistent inconsistency :)
stack inserter pickup problem.gif
stack inserter pickup problem.gif (3.22 MiB) Viewed 919 times
(not a) bug discussion here:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66990
Last edited by disentius on Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by disentius » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:49 pm

I give up for now.
Made a simple dumb -no counting- Kovarex, feed from the left. Can be managed by backpressure from U235, autofill, auto(re)start.
Incoming red belt: Feed Top half U238, Bottom half U235.
10 centrifuges deliver a bit over 56 U235/min and consume about 140 U238/min



In action:
Dumb Kovarex V3.gif
Dumb Kovarex V3.gif (13.55 MiB) Viewed 916 times
[EDIT]
Forgot to set the correct top splitter input prio. Has to be on the loop end, right in this case. Prevents clogging.
splitter setup.png
splitter setup.png (147.37 KiB) Viewed 914 times

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by zOldBulldog » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:33 pm

Based on the thoughts on this thread I think I figured it out. My thanks to everyone and below are the results:

First a test rig:
kovarex40testRig.png
kovarex40testRig.png (568.72 KiB) Viewed 889 times

And the description is at: https://factorioprints.com/view/-LbQxW5yflYTFmetR1uX

Next the actual design, that processes the first 40 in one centrifuge and after that both makes fuel cells and sends U-235 to the other 3 centrifuges for "dumb" but higher volume processing. The idea is to allow for a fast start with nuclear power and then go for high productivity. In that context... the Beacons are in the blueprint but not filled. You can remove them when you place this blueprint early, then overlay and fill them as you get enough resources for beacons and modules. I tested in my "new" 0.17 world and I had a 4-reactor setup running just after my 3x3 initial minbase/mall, before I even laid down a bus, rail and proper "full size" smelting lines.
kovarexUranium.png
kovarexUranium.png (2.7 MiB) Viewed 889 times

And the full description is here: https://factorioprints.com/view/-LbR6oDvcyQDLsSuyv_C

I hope this is of use to some of you guys.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Fishy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:12 am

Really nice clean design! I think it has the potential with a few more adjustments, as it clogged up on me before it output any U-235 in testing in sandbox. I just added ore and power.

Image

It looks like this splitter gets clogged with U-238 from kovarex production

Image

Plus, could the U-238 outflow belt be inside the beacons, so they could be shared with another production line easily?
Attachments
clogged splitter.jpg
clogged splitter.jpg (253.37 KiB) Viewed 867 times
Bulldog kovarex.jpg
Bulldog kovarex.jpg (480.49 KiB) Viewed 867 times

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Fishy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:55 am

After some fiddling, this simple circuit, and adding a U-238 recirculate belt, looks like it fixed the clog situation, But now it looks like this chest will fill before outputting any U-235
Can it it be just a piece of belt instead?
Attachments
Clog Unclogged.jpg
Clog Unclogged.jpg (702.39 KiB) Viewed 862 times
Recirc.jpg
Recirc.jpg (696.47 KiB) Viewed 862 times
U-235 Box.jpg
U-235 Box.jpg (449.91 KiB) Viewed 862 times

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by zOldBulldog » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:00 am

Fishy, something looks very weird there. Like maybe a backwards belt somewhere. The flow of U-235/U-238 just does not look normal. There should have been U-235 flowing to the assembler for the fuel cells right after the first 40 U-235 got produced.

One of the things I see is U-238 on the wrong lane of the belt. That might be why it is clogging. Do you know how it got there?

I will try to compare your screenshot to my setup tomorrow.

In the meantime, try to drain some of the U-238. Maybe make some Uranium ammo or even dump it into a bunch of additional chests.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Fishy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:50 am

There should have been U-235 flowing to the assembler for the fuel cells right after the first 40 U-235 got produced.
The priority splitter is set to recirculate U-235 back into the kovarex units. But that was easy enough to see and just figured that was adjustable to user preference. I still think the clog would occur. (I swear i just placed the blueprint and added ore/power).
One of the things I see is U-238 on the wrong lane of the belt. That might be why it is clogging. Do you know how it got there?
If you mean the recirculate belt I added, those are from the kovarex process from the back three centrifuges. The U-238 output from the kovarex units are the cause of the clog.
In the meantime, try to drain some of the U-238. Maybe make some Uranium ammo or even dump it into a bunch of additional chests.
Well, i was hoping to offer some constructive criticism and was just testing 'er out in sandbox. I still like my setup better. :D

Image

I like all my production lines to be from raw materials ;)
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Fishy Uranium&Military.jpg
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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by zOldBulldog » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:35 am

No worries, we will figure out what happened and make it unstoppable. But it could still be quite a few hours before I can test it, it is middle of the night here and I probably will not be free to do it until after work tomorrow.

BTW, I also like my lines to be from base materials (post smelting).

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by zOldBulldog » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:24 am

@Fishy,

I woke up early (wife leaving for a business trip woke me up) and I took the opportunity to look into the problem. And yes, there is a scenario where it can get stuck depending on randomness.

I think I see how to avoid the issue, so I will redesign. I think it might even simplify the design.

Not sure how long it will take, as I have a busy day ahead. Worst case scenario I hope to finish it tonight (in about 12 hours).

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by zOldBulldog » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:09 pm

@Fishy, please try this new version.

It should be quite immune to clogging (unless those top left passive provider chests fill up before the first 40 U-235, which should never happen). It should also be more efficient.

When it finally backs up on U-235... it should not matter due to the following:
- U-238 goes on the left lane of belts, always.
- U-235 and U-238 exiting centrifuges goes on left lane. That lane is dedicated to exit materials and has priority when it merges with incoming materials at the bottom of the blueprint. That way any U-238 on it gets removed before accepting any new U-238. U-235 gets moved to the right lane for return to centrifuges. So, as long as we have at least 40 U-235, U-238 can be 100% clogged (even the chests) and the process will continue working.
- Only right lane U-235 that didn't get taken by any of the centrifuges (overflow) is allowed to flow to make fuel cells and to the chest/exit, with priority to fuel cells. That keeps any U-238 exiting the centrifuges from polluting/clogging a splitter.

Eventually the whole system should clog up due to full U-235 saturation, but U-238 will keep flowing.

EDIT: I just caught a minor flaw, fixed and blueprint updated.

BulldogKovarex.png
BulldogKovarex.png (3.04 MiB) Viewed 806 times
Last edited by zOldBulldog on Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self adjusting Kovarex based on demand

Post by Fishy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:28 pm

Got 'er fired up in god mode with the game speed cranked up. Noticed this alreadyImage
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U-235 in chest.jpg
U-235 in chest.jpg (906.6 KiB) Viewed 799 times

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