[failure] train defense

Post pictures and videos of your factories.
If possible, please post also the blueprints/maps of your creations!
For art/design etc. you can go to Fan Art.

Post Reply
vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

[failure] train defense

Post by vanatteveldt »

Inspired by the 'golden train' thread I wanted to make a train defense.

I decided against an 'eternal loop' setup since I want to have multiple trains running and I wanted to be able to refuel them.

I came up with this spiral solution:

Image

Which works fine in peace time: there are a lot of signals at the bottom (presumably the 'safe' side) and they make good speed on the rest of the loop. I have two stations and set them to go to A and then B waiting 0 seconds at each. Of course, since we have no underground or bridges the spiral has to cross, so occasionally trains have to wait for the crossing. My idea was to have enough trains so there will always be a train ready to go.

Possible improvements:
- Maybe the crossing should be in the middle so that trains are never blocked from going on the 'active' loop
- Maybe having multiple separate loops works better than a spiral, could even use a number of concentric 'golden train' loops.

However, the main outcome of the experiment is that trains just don't have the stopping power to kill behemoth biters :(. They kill everything else easily, but when they hit a moth they stop. They continue to do damage per second, but since they are stopped they will now be attacked by other biters and die:

Image

I tried making longer trains (4 engines chained together). This might give more damage, but unfortunately they switch to manual mode when one engine is killed, so they block the track until they're gone.

I guess you could have this as part of a defense setup, i.e. also have a number of laser turrets, but then, why not just have laser turrets?

Also, it is annoying that you can't deploy trains automatically, so this will always require manual 'reloading'.

My conclusion: trains are not part of a good defense setup :-(. Anyone has a better idea to get this working?

User avatar
hansinator
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:42 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by hansinator »

lol that's a nice experiment :D I like it :)

kinnom
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 706
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:20 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by kinnom »

tried putting cargo wagons at the front?
no yes yes no yes no yes yes

User avatar
Optera
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2915
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:41 am
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by Optera »

Funny idea, too bad it's ruined by Behemoths being imbalanced bullet sponges.
kinnom wrote:tried putting cargo wagons at the front?
When a train composition is changed the old train is removed and a new train in manual mode is created.....
See also my bug report about this odd behavior.

TheVeteraNoob
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:20 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by TheVeteraNoob »

Oh hey cool I inspired somebody. This was actually the intention of the golden train initially, then i gave up because I got tied up with school. I wish i had some tips for you

User avatar
Deadly-Bagel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1498
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 am
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by Deadly-Bagel »

I can see there being a use in Bob's Mods as large worms can spawn close to your walls and take out your defences from outside their range. There is an Armoured Train which you can fill with lasers and shields however as Bob sticks to vanilla balance they're still totally useless.

Not sure what they would do if they ran into a behemoth, I was killed by a regular MK3 train even through four MK2 shields but the laser towers would take care of anything on the tracks, the trains are more to take out any worms or nests that spawn nearby.
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

HalfPastZulu
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:37 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by HalfPastZulu »

What about maybe having blue belts between the tracks pushing bugs on the track and away from base? :idea:

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by vanatteveldt »

HalfPastZulu wrote:What about maybe having blue belts between the tracks pushing bugs on the track and away from base? :idea:
That would be fun (although the main problem I had was the train stopping after hitting a behemoth).

I believe that a train with sufficient lenght (and nuclear fuel?) does not slow down after hitting a behemoth, so it could be worth a try...

Adeon Hawkwood
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 11:23 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by Adeon Hawkwood »

You can kill Behemoths with Trains, but you need a BIG train (15 locomotives).

From this reddit thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... _mow_down/
chrisgbk wrote:Slight correction: Locomotives are twice the weight of cargo wagons, not equal weight. The actual weight to aim for is 15 locomotive equivalent, or 30000 weight, given that a locomotive weighs 2000, a cargo wagon weighs 1000, and a fluid tanker weighs 3000.

At 15 locomotive weight, a train will not slow down when hitting a single behemoth biter when running at full speed but will eventually stop(due to losing acceleration, which will cause it to lose enough kinetic energy that it no longer instakills) after hitting around 20-30 in a row. Which is difficult to find naturally unless you herd and wall them onto the train tracks for testing. It was... difficult to count the corpses. If the train is braking for a station or intersection, somewhere around the point of 200-250km/h it will stop when it hits a behemoth biter, as it lacks the momentum to deal enough damage to instakill combined with the fact that it is decelerating to begin with.

At 30 locomotive weight, the point where a decelerating train is unable to instakill a behemoth biter is around 100 km/h, meaning in my test map the train hit a behemoth biter and stopped about 10 blocks short of the station in the behemoth biter testing cage, where I ruthlessly ran over biters for fun in the name of science. The 30 locomotive train was also not stopping by itself prior to that point, despite the many, many hundreds of biters who valiantly tried to stop the train with their bodies. I didn't make a long enough testing ground to measure accurately.

User avatar
Optera
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2915
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:41 am
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by Optera »

Those numbers are outdated.
A while ago Tankers where brought down to weight 1000 same as cargo wagons.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 7175
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by Koub »

Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

adam_bise
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by adam_bise »

From my own personal testing the following trains will not be stopped by behemoth biters:

6 locos at top speed
5 locos and 2 wagons at top speed
4 locos and 3 wagons at top speed
2 locos, 4 wagons, 2 locos at top speed
2 locos, 6 wagons, 1 loco at top speed
3 locos and 6 wagons at top speed
2 locos and 7 wagons at top speed
2 locos and 10 wagons at 250km/h

User avatar
darkfrei
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2903
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:11 pm
Contact:

Re: [failure] train defense

Post by darkfrei »

adam_bise wrote:From my own personal testing the following trains will not be stopped by behemoth biters:
6 locos at top speed
...
2 locos and 10 wagons at 250km/h
They are all have very big impact damage, while they have no resistance for it. So I've made this mod with the heavy wagon, that is enough heavy and has very high impact resistance. With two wagons you can goin through normal trains with high speed.

Post Reply

Return to “Show your Creations”