RSO for 0.17

Replaces resource spawning system, so that the distances between resources are much bigger. Railway is needed then.

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ShadowGlass
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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by ShadowGlass » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:29 pm

Light wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:24 pm
Reducing the odds of tin appearing turned an otherwise 300k-600k area into a mountain of 24M ore. Clearly something is screwed up there. Ore rarity seems to have the opposite effect, much unlike RSO.
That seems like a Bob specific bug. If you do the same thing with iron/copper/coal, the giant patches don't happen.

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by GrumpyJoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:39 pm

i have no idea what the wizardry was, that got me the nice angels ore distribution on default railworld maps, but so far there is something wrong with modded ores.
Whatever i try (not many tries since RSO sadly cant support preview) i get ore patches that are completely off with Bobs (which i tried for now for testing, will wait for 0.17 Angels)
Whatever i tried, i got like 300% base ore sizes, compared to Bobs ores.

I dont know if the removal of all but coal that comes with angels will solve this, but since RSO maps were ALOT better than vanilla ones in 0.16, i´d love to see this continued. Even in its better state, i doubt vanilla will come close to RSO

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by Serenity » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:27 am

The starting deposits overlap pretty often now in vanilla. That's also something nice to not have to deal with

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by ChurchOrganist » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:15 am

Having just experimented a little with resource settings in Factorio 0.17 it has become apparent that there will still be a need for RSO.

The richness setting in Vanilla is crazy: if you have the lowest frequency set, patch size set to 600%, and richness to 100% - starting area patches are not enough to get you going IMO (iron 284k, copper 183k, coal 315k stone 77k). The nearest resource patches are stone 8.5mil, iron 44mil, copper 37mil, and coal 19mil.

The nearest available oil is near the edge of the 1000x1000 map reveal (starting area is set to the default 100%). See the screenshot for more info.
VanillaResourceDistribution.PNG
VanillaResourceDistribution.PNG (183.02 KiB) Viewed 811 times
Want to know where the biters chewing your power plant have come from??
Wondering where your next iron is going to come from??
You need Long Range Radar

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:42 am

Hmm, I thought that the amount per ore spot was set to only richness, and decoupled from frequency and size... but it doesn't seem to be the case !

What do you mean that they are not enough to get you going ?
Are you seriously saying that 200-300k per ore won't be enough for you to research car/train ? :lol:
(I've played DeathWorld in 0.16 with starting ~50k ore.)

And what did you expect when setting frequency to lowest ?
Yeah, some of us will still need RSO, because we might *still* think that that oil is too close ! :P
(Also for tweaking the scaling : 200k for first, 40M for second is a bit too ridiculous of a scaling...)

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:21 pm

LordWampus wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:31 pm
Because the map is full of patches that just aren't important. And they'll tear your OCD apart...
But if you stick with RSO, you're gonna accomplish great things, and RSO's gonna be part of that!
And together we're gonna run around, with RSO we're gonna... do all kinds of wonderful things in Factorio!
Just you and me, RSO. The vanilla patches are our enemy... you're the only decently spaced patches we've got!
It's just me and RSO. Me and RSO and our adventures with Factorio... ME AND RSO FOREVER A HUNDRED YEARS me and RSO... some...things.... Me and RSO runnin' around the map and... RSO time... all day long forever.. all a hundred days me and RSO forever a hundred times... OVER and over me and RSO adventures dot com... W W W dot me and RSO dot com w..w..w... me and RSO adventures.. ah- hundred years.... every minute me and RSO dot com.... w w w a hundred times... me and RSO dot com.......
Thank you for that wonderful quote. I absolutely LOVE that show!!!

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by a_e » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:24 pm

Well for me the main point of RSO is that the ressources get larger/richer the farther one moves away from the starting area. Vanilla doesn't do that even in 0.17, does it?

So of course we still need RSO!

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:36 pm

Read the thread maybe?
When didn't vanilla do that?
(But a slider controlling this scaling would be nice...)

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by a_e » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:52 pm

Ok after reading the entire thread (again), reading FFF #282, FFF #258 and the wiki article on world generation, it appears that vanilla factorio does not and has never scaled ore size with distance from starting area.

That becomes clear if you look at the mechanics (https://wiki.factorio.com/World_generator#Mechanics) and also some generated examples. The "world generation" wiki page just mentions that richness scales with distance, but I haven't seen any customization possibilities for it.

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:02 pm

Ok, maybe not larger (though I doubt it), but certainly richer !

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by billbo99 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:30 am

I am experimenting with RSO and a "Rail World" config. I used the same exchange string for both maps. The vanilla map seems to be more spread out as you would expect for a "Rail World", the RSO map I am getting wider ore patches and seeing them more frequently than in vanilla.

Vanilla Rail World
Capture_no_rso.PNG
Capture_no_rso.PNG (555.83 KiB) Viewed 736 times
RSO Rail World
Capture_rso.PNG
Capture_rso.PNG (600.23 KiB) Viewed 736 times

I wonder if I should increase the setting "Size of generation region" as it does not appear to be observing the map settings in its calculations too much.

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by orzelek » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:39 am

Your RSO capture looks a bit to dense. It might be because rail world preset significantly increases size of resources (x3 size - thats a lot in RSO). And since it reduces frequency uniformly it doesn't actually affect RSO.

I might need to put a note somewhere that you should not use Railworld preset with RSO or look into overriding it myself when RSO is present.

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:59 am

Wait, are you saying that you're not supposed to use the vanilla resource settings at all when using RSO ?

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by orzelek » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:56 pm

I'm not saying don't use them ;)
I'm saying don't use railword preset that multiplies size of resources 3 times and be surprised that they are much bigger then in vanilla generator :D

RSO limited size multiplier heavily before this version but not resource settings are values so you can get size up to 6x which will generate huge ore patches that might be cut a bit due to being to large.

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:23 pm

Oh, you mean that if you set size to x3, RSO will increase it even more ?
And that RSO is now not affected by Frequency ?

Can you mod the vanilla Railworld preset ? (or at least add a "RSO Railworld" preset...)

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by Serenity » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:30 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:23 pm
And that RSO is now not affected by Frequency ?
With RSO the frequency of patches is determined by the region size (in chunks) and the resource chance per region. If you want things to be more sparse turn up the region size.

Frequency has an effect but it regulates the ratio of the resources in relation to each other. If you set everything to the same value they will be about the same. If you set for example copper and iron higher than the others they have a higher chance to spawn

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:26 pm

Ok, I wasn't sure about how RSO worked with Frequency, thanks !

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by Light » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:59 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:23 pm
Can you mod the vanilla Railworld preset ? (or at least add a "RSO Railworld" preset...)
If railworld settings is what you love, here's what I personally use for it:

Image

Resources are very far apart so trains are mandatory. Richness is slightly increased to compensate, so further patches do provide slightly longer lasting ore. If Angel's infinite ores are involved the 0.9 value ensures that no single patch can be sustainable, thus multiple patches are always required.

In my 0.15 and 0.16 games, the map was covered in hundreds of thousands of track length. The question then became "Is it more efficient to use several shorter and thus faster trains? or do I use a giant slow cargo train?". That question leads me to believe that a railworld setting was accomplished.

Feel free to experiment with the values to find your perfect map layout.

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:20 pm

Thanks, I indeed love Railworld-like settings, and was actually playing with the RSO settings when 0.17 dropped -
(for Py, removing the "starting ores", but still having a viable game start)
- but what I actually meant by my question is whether Orzelek can make so that RSO changes the RailWorld preset so that when chosen, it would pick different resource slider settings than it would in vanilla !
(Which would fit RSO ore generation more.)

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Re: RSO for 0.17

Post by orzelek » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:05 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:20 pm
Thanks, I indeed love Railworld-like settings, and was actually playing with the RSO settings when 0.17 dropped -
(for Py, removing the "starting ores", but still having a viable game start)
- but what I actually meant by my question is whether Orzelek can make so that RSO changes the RailWorld preset so that when chosen, it would pick different resource slider settings than it would in vanilla !
(Which would fit RSO ore generation more.)
I think it is moddable but I did not try it yet.

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