Your math is kind of irrelevant, part 1: His issue is that his batteries are dead. And you can see in the video @7:18 that he kills his batteries by deconstructing trees at the full distance of his roboports (and then some since he runs away from the bots). That's the exact kind of inefficiency I was talking about - zero consideration for how much robot charge he's wasting by doing that.
His claim was that using Mk2 roboports is the problem, not robot speed research. I've used the Mk2's and know that hasn't been a problem for me. I have not got into the infinite science yet so I guess it's possible I may see issues at some point
. But still, bot charging before space science seems OK to me. The youtubers are constant offenders - they don't just start doing this after bot speed is into infinite science territory, they do it from the moment they get bots, and it never stops.
I'm not really expecting to see issues even with space science bot speed upgrades, because as you say the energy used is related to distance covered. To build something the same way involves the same distance covered regardless of how fast the bots go, so the same project always requires the same amount of energy. Since I depend on batteries to provide "building bursts" of energy, it doesn't really matter how fast that energy is drained (at least in terms of my energy situation - it could matter in terms of the actual robot charging time so I'll have to see if that becomes an issue). This could be in large part though due to me not being a "speed runner" - by the time I'm ready to do the next build my batteries tend to be fully charged once gain. (But the youtubers I've seen aren't exactly speed runners either - like me they have plenty of downtime between builds.) It may be that you are more of a speed runner and are hitting real issues that I never will, but that's not what I'm seeing in the youtube videos - there I just see a lack of power and an abundance of inefficient behavior.
Your math is kind of irrelevant, part 2: I do not consider running personal bots "full time" as a valid measure. Bots are used in bursts - you start some task involving construction, you do the task, and in some time you're done - end of burst. That may involve robots each doing multiple trips, but there's always stuff to do in between bursts - there's eventually some downtime for the bots. (Even in the portable solar panel phase I tend to find plenty of stuff to do while my batteries recharge, though in that phase I'm also judicious about what I use the bots for - I don't use them for stuff I can do just as fast myself, for example.) This downtime isn't just true for me, it's also true of the youtubers. You should have enough batteries to handle your burst size. If you look @10:04 you'll see he's running with only two batteries - that's kind of inadequate IMO. His inefficient use of bot charge only compounds the problem of not enough batteries.
Another way to debunk "full time" as a valid measure is that it completely negates the need to use bots efficiently. If you can run all the bots your roboports can support continuously, for as long as you want, then there is once again (just like using the cheat) no reason to use bot charge efficiently. I.e., whatever Factorio does, it should definitely *NOT* have allowing full-time use of all your personal bots as a goal as doing so directly DAMAGES gameplay.
Some bot use cases involve extended sequences of bursts -- e.g. building long sections of track and walls, so maybe those would be cases where enough bot speed is able to get it to the point where power generation can't keep up. But even there, when using personal roboports I don't do those tasks with giant blueprints or at full roboport range because that would be really bot-charge-inefficient.
BlakeMW wrote:taking away the ability to hoover up discharged bots (and in the process recharge them) isn't the way to go about and it would introduce as many issues as it solves.
It would not *introduce* any issues. At best it might better reveal existing issues, and revealing issues is the first step in addressing them. If you never reveal them, they're unlikely to be addressed.
BlakeMW wrote:At the moment it provides a useful way to manually intervene when there is *no way* to charge as many bots as you wish to use
Are you talking roboport charging pads and charging rate, or input energy (reactors + batteries)? If it's the latter, then you are essentially just reiterating your assertion that it should be possible to run all your personal robots "full time", which I've already rejected.
BlakeMW wrote:what are you going to say? "well, players shouldn't have such ambitious construction projects, or spend more time twiddling their thumbs"?
There are full-size roboports. You can use many of them at once. Ambitious construction projects are fine, but players should use the right tool for the job.
Next you'll be telling us how miners should mine all the ore under them instantly and belts should move 1e9 items per second and assemblers should have crafting speed one million because otherwise players are going to have to "spend more time twiddling their thumbs". Players should just learn how to play the game, learn how to scale up to make progress go faster. That goes for robot stuff too. And if you're trying to scale up bot-based construction and you're using personal roboports for that, you're doing it wrong.
BlakeMW wrote:If the ability to hoover-charge bots is taken away, it should only be after resolving the intractable issues with using personal roboport
What "intractable issues"? You haven't really made the case that there are any.
Yes, you can't run thousands of bots 24/7 over the whole map using just your personal roboports. None of those are "intractable issues". They are gameplay limitations placed on portable/wearable devices, gameplay limitations that provide the challenges/trade-offs I listed in my post, and that help keep full-sized roboports relevant for construction tasks.
BlakeMW wrote:I think perhaps the game would be better if there was an efficiency boost to go along with the speed research, so one way or another robots with a higher speed multiplier use less power per tile travelled allowing them to be more productive per unit of energy.
While I am not entirely opposed to the idea of having some
bot efficiency tech, at *best* it should only slow down a bit the rate at which bot power usage (energy/time) goes up for each speed bump - not stop it. Too much of this (making this new tech overpowered) would just be another way of removing any need for efficient use of bot charge, so it would have to be applied judiciously to avoid destroying gameplay.
If you were looking at a new research related to bots and charging and dealing with high bot speed, it would seem to me to make more sense to improve bot recharge rate (assuming recharge rate actually does become an issue once you're sufficiently far into space science bot speed). Even an infinite recharge rate wouldn't remove the need to use bot charge efficiently so it doesn't destroy gameplay.
Koub wrote:there should be a rethinking on how construction bots use their energy, and how this energy is provided to them, especially in the case of early modular armor configuration
Why? What problem are you trying to solve?
Early bots are limited. You have to use them judiciously. That's a *good* thing. (Maybe they should come a bit earlier in the game, but they should still be limited.)
Klonan wrote:I don't see what this adds to the gameplay
Then you didn't read/understand my post. There are gameplay mechanics (challenges/trade-offs) present that people are completely missing out on because rather than playing the game they are cheating their way through it.
If bot charge cheating is good, why not just build in cheats for everything else too? Then people can just skip the whole game in its entirety.
Klonan wrote:just adds frustration to those early moments when you only have solar panels
Only if you're doing it wrong. I have no such frustrations. I don't use the cheat. Solar + batteries is useful, it gets lots of use, and it's actually the most interesting part of the whole game in terms of personal roboports because it requires the most consideration with respect to doing things efficiently and not wasting bot charge on tasks that don't really need it.