Respect Windows Storage Paths

Ideas, that are too old (too much things changed) or won't be implemented cause of some reasons or if there are obvious better suggestions.
BenSeidel
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:44 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by BenSeidel » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:17 pm

disentius wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:12 am
"How" is described in config-path.cfg
No, what you have posted is about the auto-generated config file that is placed in the /config directory. The true and false flag described is a setting that the developers use to create both the installer files (the .msi and steam versions) and the stand-alone "you have to extract" zip files without having to create different builds.

No where in that file does it explain the text I need to use to get it to save to the current users my documents folder INCLUDING ANY GROUP POLICY REDIRECTIONS.

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by eradicator » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:36 pm

BenSeidel wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:17 pm
save to the current users my documents folder INCLUDING ANY GROUP POLICY REDIRECTIONS.
If the config supports dynamic user names at all your best chance to find out how to do it is to make a seperate thread in "technical help". Or to do some trial + error yourself. From what i can see in factorio --help there doesn't seem to be an easy way to override the config write path from outside.
Author of: Hand Crank Generator, Screenshot Hotkey 2.0
Mod support languages: 日本語, Deutsch, English
My code in the post above is dedicated to the public domain under CC0.

Darinth
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by Darinth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:34 pm

Rseding has made the dev view very clear on the topic, but I feel like still voicing another opinion on the topic... because I'm obstinate. Sorry.

Many years ago, I stopped putting in the effort to make sure that the saved files from every game I play are all properly backed up. It made me sad, but it was simply too much of a hassle. Neither %appdata% nor %localappdata% are backed up by default by most backup utilities. Honestly, they shouldn't be. Because there's nothing that should be stored in those folders that the loss of should be any huge deal. Because the only thing that is supposed to be stored in those folders is replaceable configuration data. If my notepad++ configuration gets nuked because my hard drive crashed... it's no huge loss.

Windows does publish an official set of 'best practices' for where to store various types of data. There are a number of locations that I'm happy to see my saved games stored. Most importantly "with the game files" and "in %appdata%/%localappdata%" are not on that list, and I get a little frustrated every time I see another game save in one of these locations... because I know that if I have a hard drive failure it's not backed up. And I'm just not willing to go through the effort to back up huge amounts of irrelevant data regularly to ensure I've got these saves. Somewhere in "My Documents" is great. Somewhere in "My Saved Games" is great... but if my hard drive crashes... I lose all of my factorio data. And I care about that data, it's remarkably frustrating to know that I'll lose it when I eventually suffer a hard drive crash, but I've got hundreds of games and it's not worth my time every time I get a new computer to go back through and set my backup software to get the saved game data for every one of them and then to check for every game I start playing where it's saving it's data to make sure my backup software is also getting it. So... I'll deal with the idea that my factorio data will die with my hard drive when that eventually happens. Even though it makes me a bit sad.

christian
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:44 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by christian » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:42 pm

Please also count me in among the people who want it moved to what has been known as the generic saved directory for most games, not the Appdata Roaming folder. Please.

christian
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:44 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by christian » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:45 pm

Darinth wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:34 pm
Neither %appdata% nor %localappdata% are backed up by default by most backup utilities. Honestly, they shouldn't be. Because there's nothing that should be stored in those folders that the loss of should be any huge deal. Because the only thing that is supposed to be stored in those folders is replaceable configuration data. If my notepad++ configuration gets nuked because my hard drive crashed... it's no huge loss.
+this. People usually only backup the main folders in their users folder, nobody would think to back up the HIDDEN Appdata folder. Only very computer literate people would do that. Especially when reinstalling Windows.

christian
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:44 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by christian » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:49 pm

Rseding91 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
As for why:

I don't consider it worth breaking every single piece of documentation, every single persons remembered location, every single script, and possibly more for what is an extreme edge case issue. The *massive* majority of players do not care or even know where Factorio stores save files/configuration data and would see the location of save files being changed as useless noise (as I do).

Regarding "best practice": As a programmer and one who works with C++ there are hundreds if not thousands of "best practices" for how people think C++ should be written and for every one of them there are an equal amount or more people arguing it should be done another way. Having worked on Factorio now for around 5 years I can say that virtually all of the "best practices" people have for C++ are useless outside of their specific environment. So, with that in mind: saying Factorio should store save files in one location and configuration files in another because it's "best practice" reads to me like the people saying how we should write C++.

So, with all of that in mind my answer was an immediate "no". It's not going to improve the majority players experience and it would in all likelihood make it worse: a net negative for Factorio.
I thought I was gonna read a good explanation other than "that is our preference". I read it as "it could work either way, there's no special reason why it's saved in that folder (it's just our preference)"

BenSeidel
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:44 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by BenSeidel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:44 am

christian wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:49 pm
Rseding91 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
As for why:

I don't consider it worth breaking every single piece of documentation, every single persons remembered location, every single script, and possibly more for what is an extreme edge case issue. The *massive* majority of players do not care or even know where Factorio stores save files/configuration data and would see the location of save files being changed as useless noise (as I do).

Regarding "best practice": As a programmer and one who works with C++ there are hundreds if not thousands of "best practices" for how people think C++ should be written and for every one of them there are an equal amount or more people arguing it should be done another way. Having worked on Factorio now for around 5 years I can say that virtually all of the "best practices" people have for C++ are useless outside of their specific environment. So, with that in mind: saying Factorio should store save files in one location and configuration files in another because it's "best practice" reads to me like the people saying how we should write C++.

So, with all of that in mind my answer was an immediate "no". It's not going to improve the majority players experience and it would in all likelihood make it worse: a net negative for Factorio.
I thought I was gonna read a good explanation other than "that is our preference". I read it as "it could work either way, there's no special reason why it's saved in that folder (it's just our preference)"
It's got NOTHING to do with "best practices" and even less with "How C++ should be written", I can't even believe that it was uttered.

It goes back to the whole "software installs DLL's into C:\Windows" directory and other such practices. Microsoft have clear "dos" and "don'ts" when it comes to writing software for their system. Dos and Don'ts that come from real world disasters - like roaming profiles that bog networks down and domain administrators having to log on to each profile on each computer to set up domain-wide preferences.

I just hope that Factorio stays popular enough through the ages for Microsoft to go to the trouble of adding in capability shims in future versions of windows. Ohh, and if you're a domain administrator - this is the reason why you don't sleep at night.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4788
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by Koub » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:13 am

Sure, most domain administrators out there even have a GPO driven Factorio deployment in the Active Directories they manage, because most companies nowadays have Factorio in their standard software installs.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

the_ave
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by the_ave » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:50 am

IMHO they should, it would show they care about their employees (and not so much about their work productivity, but that's a different story...).

User avatar
Optera
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2088
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:41 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by Optera » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:24 am

LOCALAPPDATA is not intended for save games. It's for large data used by programs that should not be seen by the user.
Since players potentially want to see their save files, either to attach to bug reports or simply backup a more accessible place has somewhat been established among many recent games:
%USERPROFILE%\Documents\My Games\"Game Name"\

The argument about changing documentation and remembered location is moot. We modders hear from you time and again "Factorio is pre-realease, things can change and established practices can break anytime."

User avatar
mexmer
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 830
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by mexmer » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:04 pm

while for apps i would advocate usage of %appdata% or %localappdata% (for temporary stuff). for game saves i prefer either usage of game specific folder in "My Documents" (FOLDERID_Documents) or "My Saved Games" (introduced in vista FOLDERID_SavedGames ) because it's easy to find and easy to backup.

User avatar
BattleFluffy
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by BattleFluffy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:49 pm

Darinth wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:34 pm
There are a number of locations that I'm happy to see my saved games stored. Most importantly "with the game files" and "in %appdata%/%localappdata%" are not on that list, and I get a little frustrated every time I see another game save in one of these locations... because I know that if I have a hard drive failure it's not backed up.
I can see that. However, if you have Factorio through Steam then your save games are actually available via the Steam cloud. So in this circumstances if your hard drive was to die, when you download Factorio on the replacement computer your save games will be downloaded with it.

I do think you make a good point about backup practices. I actually think for save games, storing them in the game folder is a pretty decent option if the entire thing is set up in a way that it's "portable" - ie you can copy the Factorio folder on a usb memory device, then copy it onto some other computer and load it up and play it without any additional setup required. Backing up individual game files becomes a little harder then I guess, but I feel that is fairly adequately addressed by the "steam cloud" thing I mentioned above.

So, overall I guess I think some subfolder in the game folder would be the nicest location - if that then means the entire thing can be portable.

User avatar
mexmer
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 830
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by mexmer » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:20 am

BattleFluffy wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:49 pm
Darinth wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:34 pm
There are a number of locations that I'm happy to see my saved games stored. Most importantly "with the game files" and "in %appdata%/%localappdata%" are not on that list, and I get a little frustrated every time I see another game save in one of these locations... because I know that if I have a hard drive failure it's not backed up.
I can see that. However, if you have Factorio through Steam then your save games are actually available via the Steam cloud. So in this circumstances if your hard drive was to die, when you download Factorio on the replacement computer your save games will be downloaded with it.

I do think you make a good point about backup practices. I actually think for save games, storing them in the game folder is a pretty decent option if the entire thing is set up in a way that it's "portable" - ie you can copy the Factorio folder on a usb memory device, then copy it onto some other computer and load it up and play it without any additional setup required. Backing up individual game files becomes a little harder then I guess, but I feel that is fairly adequately addressed by the "steam cloud" thing I mentioned above.

So, overall I guess I think some subfolder in the game folder would be the nicest location - if that then means the entire thing can be portable.
if you download zip version, that is your "portable" version of factorio, mods, settings, saves, everything is configured to be in folder, where you extract factorio zip archive.

what people talking here is configuration of "installer" and steam version of factorio.

User avatar
eradicator
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by eradicator » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:49 am

BattleFluffy wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:49 pm
However, if you have Factorio through Steam then your save games are actually available via the Steam cloud.
Steam cloud is a minority solution for people who are lucky enough to have fast internet. The unlucky people need the connection to not be completely blocked all the time by savedata backups.
Author of: Hand Crank Generator, Screenshot Hotkey 2.0
Mod support languages: 日本語, Deutsch, English
My code in the post above is dedicated to the public domain under CC0.

Darinth
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Respect Windows Storage Paths

Post by Darinth » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:19 pm

BattleFluffy wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:49 pm
I can see that. However, if you have Factorio through Steam then your save games are actually available via the Steam cloud. So in this circumstances if your hard drive was to die, when you download Factorio on the replacement computer your save games will be downloaded with it.

I do think you make a good point about backup practices. I actually think for save games, storing them in the game folder is a pretty decent option if the entire thing is set up in a way that it's "portable" - ie you can copy the Factorio folder on a usb memory device, then copy it onto some other computer and load it up and play it without any additional setup required. Backing up individual game files becomes a little harder then I guess, but I feel that is fairly adequately addressed by the "steam cloud" thing I mentioned above.

So, overall I guess I think some subfolder in the game folder would be the nicest location - if that then means the entire thing can be portable.
I'd honestly forgotten about steam cloud backups. Makes be a bit happier, because I do in fact have the internet speed to afford to do steam backups easily. I run servers out of my house, so having good internet speeds is kinda necessary. But as Eradicator said, it's not a good idea to assume that everybody has those speeds. Many parts of the world still run on dial up. As much as I doubt Wube is going to be willing to move the folder, for non-portable versions of the game My Documents/My Games folders I feel are really the best locations. :(

Post Reply

Return to “Outdated/Not implemented”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users