Invert Landfill

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"Water" block to expand a lake

Post by nafira » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:38 pm

Creation of water tiles
You can fill water with dirt ? Why not the opposite ?

What ?
Yeah, pretty simple : the goal is to start from a tile having water already (you can't "create" a lake) and remove terrain to create a lake.
Recipe : 1 empty barrel and 1 barrel with water inside to create 5 "Water block" (I don't have a name)

The goal is to keep it costly to avoid creation of "phantom wall" to prevent bitter attacks.
Why ?
The reason is stupid as possible : if you want to align some pumps or other, you can't (or you need to edit the map). This is really annoying due to the underlying behavior of fluids if pumps are not aligned.
The only thing : you to start from existing water.

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Re: "Water" block to expand a lake

Post by leadraven » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 pm

Again?
Dig channel from the closest lake -> create pool where you need it -> remove channel -> water anywhere.
As a bonus - water defense.
Cost dpesn't matter.

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Re: "Water" block to expand a lake

Post by darkfrei » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Very nice mod for this:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/CanalBuilder
Waterfill can only be placed adjacent to existing bodies of water - no spawning water from nowhere

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Koub » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:12 pm

[Koub] Merged into older similar suggestion.
Will likely not happen in vanilla.
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Waterfill

Post by YumYumFisch » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:43 pm

As we have Landfill it would make sense having Waterfill.
When you accidentally block off a watersource you cant undo it so eventually you might run out of Water.

Thinking of recipies of course it will consume a lot of water and maybe plastic, stone or concrete to prevent the water from draining.

What do you think about this?

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Re: Waterfill

Post by Ranakastrasz » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:48 pm

I've seen a few mods with this concept.

The main issue is that it lets you make an invulnerable walloff or bottleneck, which is undesirable for combat effects.

The original landfill mod had explosives that would blow a hole in the terrain, and drop a few stone patches around the water. If it landed in the water, it filled that back up. Otherwise you got back the same amount of stone as the landfill cost.
This made it very time consuming to make a walloff, because it kept filling in other water. You could make a water area, but only small ones before it started eating itself. Enough for water wells, not enough for an ocean or moat.

Alternatively, since we now have those new shallow water tiles, which you can walk on and (presumably) can get water from via offshore pump, will be the result. Get the water, no moats. Or weak moat because it probably slows down movement.
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Re: Waterfill

Post by Serenity » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:54 pm

Something like the canal builder mod would work:

1.) Can't create impassable water. Canals are shallow and only slow down (this would allow moats which may not by desirable for combat balance)
2.) Canals need to start with existing water. Can't create water out of nowhere

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Re: Waterfill

Post by YumYumFisch » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:55 pm

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:48 pm
Since we now have those new shallow water tiles, which you can walk on and (presumably) can get water from via offshore pump, will be the result. Get the water, no moats. Or weak moat because it probably slows down movement.
But i cant find a option to create this kind of water as a player and not just via the editor.
Last edited by YumYumFisch on Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Waterfill

Post by Ranakastrasz » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:56 pm

YumYumFisch wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:55 pm

But i cant find a option to create these as a player and not just via the editor.
Yes, I am aware of that. I was pointing out several issues that make the developers not put it in the game, and that some mods have this functionality.
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Re: Waterfill

Post by SyncViews » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:26 pm

Also removes the point of having pumps / water pipes unless had more complex "limited water" physics. Reminds me of how in Minecraft basically any time water is needed in vanilla, or mods, almost everyone will just make an infinite water source right next to where they need it.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Koub » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:43 pm

[Koub] Merged into older similar suggestion.
Will likely not happen in vanilla.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Darinth » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:34 pm

Adding the ability to arbitrarily create water anywhere is kinda questionable, but I'm still a big fan of either
A: the ability to remove landfill and restore water
B: the ability to make some kind of metal platform over water
B1: Metal platform is removable
B2: Both structures requiring water and structures requiring land could be built on top of plating, since the water is still below it.

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Re: Waterfill

Post by CDarklock » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:43 pm

YumYumFisch wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:43 pm
eventually you might run out of Water.
Well, yes, given an infnite amount of time... a sufficiently dedicated player might theoretically mine enough stone to make enough landfill to run all the way across the entire world filling in every single source of water, on purpose, because he is crazy.

This is not a design problem.

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Re: Waterfill

Post by Ranakastrasz » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:49 pm

SyncViews wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:26 pm
Also removes the point of having pumps / water pipes unless had more complex "limited water" physics. Reminds me of how in Minecraft basically any time water is needed in vanilla, or mods, almost everyone will just make an infinite water source right next to where they need it.
Yea. I've seen a handful of mods that try to fix this in mine-craft. Disable water filling, results in voids. Adding some level of gravity, which ensures the voids are pretty much surface level only, but you still get those currents. Overhaul, Make water a complex entity with a water level, so removing one bucket worth would spread outwards and lower the level by a small amount.

None of them have included handling rain though, so water would dry up eventually. Which is fine, but it just feels wrong to be able to use it all up, when rain exists.

That is the main thing I always find annoying about finite water mods in this type of game. THE WATER CYCLE.
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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Darinth » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:21 pm

While I've certainly never been concerned about completely running out of water on my map, I functionally refuse to use landfill because I don't want to potentially reduce the availability of an important resource. Even knowing that I've always had more than what I really need. Also... I like to preserve or at least be able to restore the environment. So... I acknowledge that it's mostly a personal frustration that makes me refuse to use landfill, it's one that is shared by a number of people.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by leadraven » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:47 am

Darinth wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:34 pm
Adding the ability to arbitrarily create water anywhere is kinda questionable, but I'm still a big fan of either
A: the ability to remove landfill and restore water
B: the ability to make some kind of metal platform over water
B1: Metal platform is removable
B2: Both structures requiring water and structures requiring land could be built on top of plating, since the water is still below it.
This. Ability not to create water anywhere, but to revert landfill.
May be keep basic landfill as is, but add more expensive (steel, concrete) analogue that can be dismantled.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by shthed » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:18 am

As of 0.17.10 Landfill is now a separate tile, differentiated from grass-1. So it should be able to be undone or dug up please!

https://wiki.factorio.com/Version_histo ... .0#0.17.10

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by shthed » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am

Please let us undo landfill! It's too easy to make permanent mistakes with landfill and blueprints.

Since 0.17.10 Landfill is now a separate tile, differentiated from grass-1.

We should be able to undo landfill but not just create water where it wasn't there before.

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Undo Landfill

Post by shthed » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:39 am

TL;DR
Should be able to undo the action of placing landfill, this should revert the tile back into water. I am NOT suggesting the ability to create water anywhere, just revert to water that existed previously.
What ?
The action of placing Landfill should be able to be undone. Either through Undo (Ctrl-z) or being able to deconstruct the Landfill tile. Same goes for undoing the deconstruction of an Offshore Pump which has had the land filled in around it, currently the water source disappears and the pump cannot be put back.
Why ?
It is too easy to make a permanent mistake placing landfill or accidentally deconstructing an offshore pump.
Since 0.17.10 Landfill is now a separate tile, differentiated from grass-1, it should be able to be deconstructed or undone.

For example: https://imgur.com/a/vREgsRK
Last edited by shthed on Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Undo Landfill

Post by boran_blok » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:02 am

I wholly support this idea. One of my most frustrating moments in .16 was when I misplaced landfill for the nuclear reactor. Twice it is really hard to see sometimes where landfill begins and ends. We installed waterfill to fix this, but this does feel really cheaty.

Just being able to remove landfill would not be cheaty as you could not make water where previously there was none, but you could still fix your mistakes.

This would require however that the map keeps remembering what was and was not landfill.

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