Invert Landfill

Ideas, that are too old (too much things changed) or won't be implemented cause of some reasons or if there are obvious better suggestions.
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Nubm2
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Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:07 am

Why do i suggest it?
Because it makes sense, would look awesome and would be fun to have.

How would it work?
1. Either a machine that will be placed or an excavator vehicle, to dig out dirt and create water-filled holes. This method is very time consuming, but automatic. The dirt could even replace the stone in the landfill recipe or extend it.
2. Explosives that will create larger water holes fast. They are very expensive though (~10-20 explosives per blast, result will roughly be a circle with a random shape at the corners)

What had to be changed to make it work? (Balance and gameplay)
Critters would become the ability to swim, but its kinda like walking (they would become very slow though). Walls and turrets can be placed on land to defend, and messed up terrain can be refilled with landfills.

Possible future use:
- Boats and harbours for transportation (moving via waypoints that are used like electric poles. If land is in the path the boat will crash or get stuck and has to be moved manually)
- Bridges (especially railroad)
- Better water usage and control, like in- and outlets for buildings (including treatment plants to prevent pollution spread)
- Rivers and river flow modifications, to connect hydroelectric plants for example

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Optera » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:56 am

Try using Waterfill Mod.
Unless they give biters the ability to swim, fly or fill up moots I doubt the devs will add anything like it.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:35 pm

Yeah, thats why i wouldn't use the mod. Its outright OP to use moats as defensive structures without said changes to critters.

To be honest, what im really interessted in is transportation via cargo ships, which would require channels. Would be so awesome!

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Glockshna » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:44 pm

I use the waterfill mod (Linked previously) but with the self imposed limitation that I can't use it in any way for defensive purposes.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by ssilk » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:18 pm

Won't be implented. Reason already explained by Optera.
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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:18 pm

ssilk wrote:Won't be implented. Reason already explained by Optera.
Well, the placing of water might be a mod, but its totally OP (as said by Optera), thats why i suggested it. Woudn't it be rather easy to teach critters how to swim?

The main point was future uses though, cargo ships would be awesome, and especially on maps with a lot of water, e.g. Ocean/island maps. Also it just feels like its a missing part, for example its impossible to revert the landfill effects.

I think its still a valid suggestion, and abuse can be countered with minor changes. After all, players can't swim and too much water can hinder factory growth easily.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by ssilk » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:52 am

Nubm2 wrote:The main point was future uses though, cargo ships would be awesome
In that case you made this suggestion in the wrong order. Suggest cargo ships first, then waterfill. 8-) :)

No. ;)

The truth is: In the current game this would unbalance the the complete game if biters learn to swim; nothing is save anymore, so you need to rebalance weapons etc.
Or the other way around: Biters cannot swim, you simply can place water, have silence from the natives: Weapons can be smaller.

Both cannot be target of Factorio. The fact is, that Factorio is in some kind of Tower Defense game (see also the coming 0.15, which includes such a scenario) and that means, that the enemy is forced to walk around the obstacles which come either from player or from game. But if the player can add obstacles over the roads the game has let open, then this principle won't work anymore. It breaks.

So: A simple change makes a lot of work with questionable gameplay-value and changing of a basic game priciple -> won't implement :)
There are mods, that will do that if you need it. But we are talking here about implementing it into vanilla and that is - as hopefully enough explained - not useful in this case.
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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:48 am

ssilk wrote:
Nubm2 wrote:The main point was future uses though, cargo ships would be awesome
In that case you made this suggestion in the wrong order. Suggest cargo ships first, then waterfill. 8-) :)

No. ;)

The truth is: In the current game this would unbalance the the complete game if biters learn to swim; nothing is save anymore, so you need to rebalance weapons etc.
Or the other way around: Biters cannot swim, you simply can place water, have silence from the natives: Weapons can be smaller.

Both cannot be target of Factorio. The fact is, that Factorio is in some kind of Tower Defense game (see also the coming 0.15, which includes such a scenario) and that means, that the enemy is forced to walk around the obstacles which come either from player or from game. But if the player can add obstacles over the roads the game has let open, then this principle won't work anymore. It breaks.

So: A simple change makes a lot of work with questionable gameplay-value and changing of a basic game priciple -> won't implement :)
There are mods, that will do that if you need it. But we are talking here about implementing it into vanilla and that is - as hopefully enough explained - not useful in this case.

Thats funny, i thought i did it in the right order, since cargo ships are useless without the ability to connect lakes. :o

Also i dont see why swiming bitters (and spitters) would corrupt the balance at all. Walls and turrets at the shore will get a bit stronger since they slow down a bit. Also with boats offshore defence is possible. You would need huge bodys of waters around your base or any outpost to prevent attacks though, which wouldn't be worth it due to the high resource costs.
Also, if there is no threat they wouldn't move into water and prefer land routes for movement. If they notice a huge pollution cloud or get attacked first with water in the way however they would swim over and attack.

Needless to say that critters can still attack while in water. Lets say swimming would slow them down by 10-20%, you'd still need a good amount of defence.
Also water has nothing to do with the tower defence style of the game, since it cannot be placed anyways. You had to find a large enough lake first, use an insane amount of landfill and shape out the route (without missclicks). Water is random, so is the spawn location.

Please reconsider it to move it back to Ideas and suggestions. I'll try to add something in my first post to make it more clear that i do not want a major change at all.


[EDIT:] Wait, forget about that. I agree, and will start with another approach and a new topic. The main theme is water, not only the placement of water.
Please let me apologize, english isn't my native language, and im pretty bad with words too.

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by ssilk » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:32 pm

Eventually useful to make useful suggestion:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=14024 Travel over Water: Boats, Ships, Canus / Bridges / Tunnels
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21378 Footbridges (over pipes, rails, water...), Catwalks, Tunnels
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17734 New types of vehicles (train, tank, car, plane, ship...)

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=262 Water as limited ressource
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=25728 More Water Usages (Aquafarm, enemies, oil riggs...)
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Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by zOldBulldog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am

This is the perfect companion to Landfill. If you ever wanted to choose the location for your lakes, this is it.

- About as easy to build as Landfill.
- When placed it produces landfill blocks and leaves anwater block.

As an alternative it could be implemented as a shovel tool, but if so it should be a tool that wears out very fast so that the cost remains similar to landfill. The disadvantage of the shovel instead of the excavation item is that probably involves much more coding.

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Re: Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by Kyralessa » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:02 pm

This has been suggested many, many times.

The reason it gets turned down is that avoiding the aliens would become trivial: Just dig out a moat around your base and they'll never be able to reach you.

One alternative is to set the water settings to produce an extreme amount of water, then find a big spot with nothing but water and start plunking down landfill there, for a similar effect.


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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Koub » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:51 pm

[Koub] Merged into older topic with similar suggestion.
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Re: Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by zOldBulldog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:44 pm

Kyralessa wrote:This has been suggested many, many times.

The reason it gets turned down is that avoiding the aliens would become trivial: Just dig out a moat around your base and they'll never be able to reach you.

One alternative is to set the water settings to produce an extreme amount of water, then find a big spot with nothing but water and start plunking down landfill there, for a similar effect.
What settings will produce "large continuous bodies of water"?

Every time I played with water settings (in 0.16) I got a ton of scattered little water bodies instead of large lakes/seas, even with the lowest frequency setting. In the end I gave up on water. I now play with minimal water settings, it is much more manageable.

Also, I fear there is a map generator bug that places ores before it places water. So, if you use a lot of water you end up with too few ore resources, making the game very unpleasant.

If the problem is the creation of moats, I have an alternative that should be posted: STRIP MINING: A miner that leaves a lake after removing the ore, that way a player won't be able to create moats. I'll make a new suggestion for that.

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Re: Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by Kyralessa » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:49 pm

zOldBulldog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:44 pm
What settings will produce "large continuous bodies of water"?

Every time I played with water settings (in 0.16) I got a ton of scattered little water bodies instead of large lakes/seas, even with the lowest frequency setting. In the end I gave up on water. I now play with minimal water settings, it is much more manageable.

Also, I fear there is a map generator bug that places ores before it places water. So, if you use a lot of water you end up with too few ore resources, making the game very unpleasant.

If the problem is the creation of moats, I have an alternative that should be posted: STRIP MINING: A miner that leaves a lake after removing the ore, that way a player won't be able to create moats. I'll make a new suggestion for that.
I've had the best luck with setting water frequency (first column) to the lowest setting, and water size (second column) to highest.

Setting water frequency higher breaks up the land too much. Setting water size lower makes the water more like lakes than an actual ocean.

As far as ore, I tend to play with lowest frequency and highest size and richness for all ores and oil, so that I have to hunt farther to find patches, but once I do find them, they last for a while.

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"Water" block to expand a lake

Post by nafira » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:38 pm

Creation of water tiles
You can fill water with dirt ? Why not the opposite ?

What ?
Yeah, pretty simple : the goal is to start from a tile having water already (you can't "create" a lake) and remove terrain to create a lake.
Recipe : 1 empty barrel and 1 barrel with water inside to create 5 "Water block" (I don't have a name)

The goal is to keep it costly to avoid creation of "phantom wall" to prevent bitter attacks.
Why ?
The reason is stupid as possible : if you want to align some pumps or other, you can't (or you need to edit the map). This is really annoying due to the underlying behavior of fluids if pumps are not aligned.
The only thing : you to start from existing water.

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Re: "Water" block to expand a lake

Post by leadraven » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 pm

Again?
Dig channel from the closest lake -> create pool where you need it -> remove channel -> water anywhere.
As a bonus - water defense.
Cost dpesn't matter.

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Re: "Water" block to expand a lake

Post by darkfrei » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Very nice mod for this:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/CanalBuilder
Waterfill can only be placed adjacent to existing bodies of water - no spawning water from nowhere

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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Koub » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:12 pm

[Koub] Merged into older similar suggestion.
Will likely not happen in vanilla.
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