Invert Landfill

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.
Koub
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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Koub » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:05 pm

nljr wrote:
Koub wrote:However, land filled with landfill becomes standard land.
Are you sure? I've found it's impossible to lay paving on landfill. The game KNOWS it isn't standard land.
Yes I am
You can't place concrete too close to water. Maybe it's why you may have thought landfilled surfaces could not bear concrete
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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by nljr » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:30 am

Koub wrote: You can't place concrete too close to water. Maybe it's why you may have thought landfilled surfaces could not bear concrete
I stand corrected. Actually, I sit here, addicted to some game.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by SuicideJunkie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:38 pm

I like the idea of building bridges with concrete and iron/steel as an option, rather than simply dumping landfill rocks to make more land.
(Rail bridges would need to be added too.)

Such a bridge would allow you to walk/drive across it, but not build things on it (since it is a building already), and would be deconstructable and presumably destroyable too.

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Gergely
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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Gergely » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:50 am

Koub wrote:Oh I see. I hadn't understood that reading the OP.
However, land filled with landfill becomes standard land. I'm afraid making it "undoable" landfill would require creating a new land type (artificial land or something), and I'm not sure it is likely. I'm not a dev though, it might be doable, and coherent with the devs' plans.
It is not possible to generate a world with absolutely no water, but it is possible to generate one with finite water. But if you can landfill that starting area, what was the intent of the developers about no world without water in the first place? I made a feature request about it. I am familiar with the modding API, I know it is very easy to implement undoable landfill by making it a separate title and getting RID of the title correction logic. (which hopefully happened in 0.16) viewtopic.php?f=6&t=54458

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by vanatteveldt » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:49 pm

I think it would be cool to replace landfill with some sort of iron bridge/support structure over water so the original water is still there but you can build stuff on top of it. This might be hard to implement if entities are supposed to be non-overlapping.

BTW, this request will come back with cliff explosives, as I'm pretty sure that will also be non-reversible, while every other action in the game is more or less trivially reversible (given enough bots and materials).

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by SirSmuggler » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:26 pm

vanatteveldt wrote:I think it would be cool to replace landfill with some sort of iron bridge/support structure over water so the original water is still there but you can build stuff on top of it. This might be hard to implement if entities are supposed to be non-overlapping.

BTW, this request will come back with cliff explosives, as I'm pretty sure that will also be non-reversible, while every other action in the game is more or less trivially reversible (given enough bots and materials).
Removing trees and rocks is not reversible either as fas as I know (without mods).

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by HurkWurk » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:04 pm

to the best of my knowledge, they only keep one copy of the map, so they dont have an original map to go back to, to compare and determine what is original vs what you have edited.

I do like the idea of building "docks" over water, rather than or in addition to landfills. that would be an easy one since you apply wood planks to make dock then cut it down to make water.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by doktorstick » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:27 pm

My mode of operations is...

* Make save;
* Do landfill and have my mouse jiggle and mess up;
* Reload save;
* Do landfill and have it come out perfect; and
* Make save.

:P
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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by ThaPear » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:50 pm

doktorstick wrote:My mode of operations is...

* Make save;
* Do landfill and have my mouse jiggle and mess up;
* Reload save;
* Do landfill and have it come out perfect; and
* Make save.

:P
This used to be my method as well, until I found out there's a mod called Waterfill.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by diLuca » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:48 am

water as natural undestructable wall is OP as it is. fair enough to make landfill permanent. sometimes you have to think twice when you make decisions.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by greaman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:50 pm

ThaPear wrote: This used to be my method as well, until I found out there's a mod called Waterfill.
Which doesn't help if you are playing vanilla ;)

Honestly, I don't get the whole Biter argument - people have dug trenches since centuries to power watermills, irrigate fields or as defenses - it can be handled by:
- position in the tech tree (if placed late in the tech tree Biters will be a problem long enough - and there aren't in the late game anyways)
- costs for waterfill
- (you could require waterfill to be placed next to water to be more realistic)

Especially since 0.15 and 0.16 Biters are no real trouble in the late game... building big structures is and goes a lot easier if you can setup a proper watersupply for power plants or chemical plants.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Gergely » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:09 am

diLuca wrote:water as natural undestructable wall is OP as it is. fair enough to make landfill permanent. sometimes you have to think twice when you make decisions.
You are way off in the distance.

This topic is not asking for ability to create water anywhere. It's asking for the ability to undo landfill.

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by thelordodin » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:15 am

I think there should be a way to dig and expand water areas.
Also I think that from certain level of evolution all the biters should begin to be able to swim in vanilla.
At later stages there should be flying biters.
Also that would be interesting if at some point a "transporter" biter would appear (a big-mother with lots of biters in it, which can swim).

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Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Astaedus » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 am

How about replacing landfill with pontoons (floating platforms) on which you can walk and build?
Then it could make sense to be able to remove them, without being able to create water walls anywhere.

They could perhaps be on the same layer as the stone/concrete floor is on land, but these can be on top of water.
(Giving them the immediate downside that you can't put floors on top of them, which I think is great.
You want to give some downside to something like this to discourage filling every lake and have it act like regular land.)

You could even have multiple types of pontoons:
- Wooden ones you can only walk upon or put belts and pipes on (and no undergrounds, obviously), maybe with a small reduction in movement speed?
- Plastic ones with higher bouyancy so you can run railroads across them, without reduction in movement speed
- And maybe even better ones you can build anything upon, with a small bonus in movement speed

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Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by zOldBulldog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am

This is the perfect companion to Landfill. If you ever wanted to choose the location for your lakes, this is it.

- About as easy to build as Landfill.
- When placed it produces landfill blocks and leaves anwater block.

As an alternative it could be implemented as a shovel tool, but if so it should be a tool that wears out very fast so that the cost remains similar to landfill. The disadvantage of the shovel instead of the excavation item is that probably involves much more coding.

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Re: Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by Kyralessa » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:02 pm

This has been suggested many, many times.

The reason it gets turned down is that avoiding the aliens would become trivial: Just dig out a moat around your base and they'll never be able to reach you.

One alternative is to set the water settings to produce an extreme amount of water, then find a big spot with nothing but water and start plunking down landfill there, for a similar effect.


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Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Koub » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:51 pm

[Koub] Merged into older topic with similar suggestion.
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Re: Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by zOldBulldog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:44 pm

Kyralessa wrote:This has been suggested many, many times.

The reason it gets turned down is that avoiding the aliens would become trivial: Just dig out a moat around your base and they'll never be able to reach you.

One alternative is to set the water settings to produce an extreme amount of water, then find a big spot with nothing but water and start plunking down landfill there, for a similar effect.
What settings will produce "large continuous bodies of water"?

Every time I played with water settings (in 0.16) I got a ton of scattered little water bodies instead of large lakes/seas, even with the lowest frequency setting. In the end I gave up on water. I now play with minimal water settings, it is much more manageable.

Also, I fear there is a map generator bug that places ores before it places water. So, if you use a lot of water you end up with too few ore resources, making the game very unpleasant.

If the problem is the creation of moats, I have an alternative that should be posted: STRIP MINING: A miner that leaves a lake after removing the ore, that way a player won't be able to create moats. I'll make a new suggestion for that.

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Re: Excavation:. Opposite of landfill.

Post by Kyralessa » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:49 pm

zOldBulldog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:44 pm
What settings will produce "large continuous bodies of water"?

Every time I played with water settings (in 0.16) I got a ton of scattered little water bodies instead of large lakes/seas, even with the lowest frequency setting. In the end I gave up on water. I now play with minimal water settings, it is much more manageable.

Also, I fear there is a map generator bug that places ores before it places water. So, if you use a lot of water you end up with too few ore resources, making the game very unpleasant.

If the problem is the creation of moats, I have an alternative that should be posted: STRIP MINING: A miner that leaves a lake after removing the ore, that way a player won't be able to create moats. I'll make a new suggestion for that.
I've had the best luck with setting water frequency (first column) to the lowest setting, and water size (second column) to highest.

Setting water frequency higher breaks up the land too much. Setting water size lower makes the water more like lakes than an actual ocean.

As far as ore, I tend to play with lowest frequency and highest size and richness for all ores and oil, so that I have to hunt farther to find patches, but once I do find them, they last for a while.

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