Yuoki Industries - Informations, Suggestions, Questions

[Nagshell]

Can somebody suggest any good power generation setup? As new buildings costs so much power I tried to use some of power production chains, and they don't seem any good.
Mostly it's because I couldn't find any good fuel production, so I rely on coal deposit. All new fuel items are not rly that usefull.

For example you can make Transmuted UCA2, which is 3GJ fuel cube, but to do so you need to use 40 sec long recipe on 75MW building, which is total of... 3GW of electric energy.
So if we skip cost of making UCA2 itself it's still 100% electric into fuel, and best you can get is 90% fuel into electric.
I don't know how efficient mechanical power is, but at least in early to mid game it feels like it burns more fuel than boilers would.(I was trying out Solid-Fuel Engine)
Anyways, after trying early game setups I found that they are not as good as simple boiler -> steam machine (at least I use better version from mod), but with energy that comes from them I couldn't any good way of producing enough fuel to make positive loop.

Also this could just reduce into "don't use any new engines / generators, but use Sun Striling panels and accumulators"
And if so, then it's quite sad I think, because I would like to have self-sustained base without solar power, if possible in any way.

[YuokiTani]

Can somebody suggest any good power generation setup? As new buildings costs so much power I tried to use some of power production chains, and they don't seem any good.
Mostly it's because I couldn't find any good fuel production, so I rely on coal deposit. All new fuel items are not rly that usefull.

For example you can make Transmuted UCA2, which is 3GJ fuel cube, but to do so you need to use 40 sec long recipe on 75MW building, which is total of... 3GW of electric energy.
So if we skip cost of making UCA2 itself it's still 100% electric into fuel, and best you can get is 90% fuel into electric.
I don't know how efficient mechanical power is, but at least in early to mid game it feels like it burns more fuel than boilers would.(I was trying out Solid-Fuel Engine)
Anyways, after trying early game setups I found that they are not as good as simple boiler -> steam machine (at least I use better version from mod), but with energy that comes from them I couldn't any good way of producing enough fuel to make positive loop.

Also this could just reduce into "don't use any new engines / generators, but use Sun Striling panels and accumulators"
And if so, then it's quite sad I think, because I would like to have self-sustained base without solar power, if possible in any way.

In this way infusion works correct - if you apply some beacon you can reduce up to -80% around 25 MW consume left.
you should process your coal to get a higher fuel-value and you can also burn mud-balls (later prefered to infuse) - if you process your ore you have a mud overflow.

at the start its more useful to use only boiler and steam-generator/steam-turbine (no SEG, MEG, BEG, HEG) because they have a higher efficency as vanilla - this means you get more energy from your coal - in combination i think around 10-25 %. the mod gives you also the yi-green-module-1 to reduce energy-consume in some machines.

the link at starting-page to value-sheet its still valid - so you can compare to vanilla.
i'am not sure, but maybe this video helps

so the energy-plus works over time, it's not you place something and all energy-problems solved (only if you can place and feed a quantrinum-reactor) - your starting coal should be enough to get to the infusion-stage. if you infuse mud with beacons your only problem is then get more mud
i try to make tomorrow a video and show some of my savegames and the power-generation.

[Nagshell]

So I played around a little and man, this is most fun mod I played so far while it's pretty balanced.

If you don't mind I have some thoughts to share, about what could be improved a little.

-Maybe more beacons? I don't like basic beacon, maybe you could design something interesting like smaller beacon with same range, or beacon with more range and less efficiency(we could build like central beacon area in base and whole base would profit from it etc)
-Accumulators are very nice, but if we use energy from fuel they don't really have any use, and solar power is very limited -> Maybe something new from this side? Like panels that could at least try to sustain factory. (small idea of big panel, like 4x4 or 5x5 that produce much energy)
-something small - your buildings looks awesome, but sometimes they look little weird when you connect them with pipes

In short words: This mod is so awesome that I'd like to have more of it!

[YuokiTani]

So I played around a little and man, this is most fun mod I played so far while it's pretty balanced.
If you don't mind I have some thoughts to share, about what could be improved a little.
-Maybe more beacons? I don't like basic beacon, maybe you could design something interesting like smaller beacon with same range, or beacon with more range and less efficiency(we could build like central beacon area in base and whole base would profit from it etc)
-Accumulators are very nice, but if we use energy from fuel they don't really have any use, and solar power is very limited -> Maybe something new from this side? Like panels that could at least try to sustain factory. (small idea of big panel, like 4x4 or 5x5 that produce much energy)
-something small - your buildings looks awesome, but sometimes they look little weird when you connect them with pipes
In short words: This mod is so awesome that I'd like to have more of it!

I collect always suggestions and idea's for next versions.
And i can now remember why infusing cost's 75MW and gives you a 3 GJ charge ^^ - it's original idea was to hold these shards as mobile batterys if you have a overpowered solar-field or power-generation. but fatmice had use beacons to cheat this idea and so it's now standard to use beacons and the original intention is lost

the accumulators had original different values in load-rate and discharge-rate, but i had never really verified this values ingame. Someone reported these values won't work, so i set these to default. i'am a little undecided about these, because they hold not enough energy to make them useful. i think i should do some calculations and rethink the accumulator strategy. the sun-stirlings use 2x2 and gives 75 kW ... but i'am still not a fan of free energy from nothing.

over time (a mean a long time) i think all gfx-problems get fixed. pipe-connections are a nightmare to integrate or do with code per overlays. in the same time i can make a whole new gfx ^^ - so it's not to hard to understand why pipes not have a high priority - i think the developers take 1-3 days (8-24 hours) or more to make a gfx and get this paid - i take 1-2 hours and sometimes i tweak a little more but very rarely i use more than 4 hours in total.

keep your pleasure by discovering the mod and try makeing high-end stuff without flying robots

[Lishget]

Thanks.
Yes, by some things i was not sure, wether my translation was correct. I made it to the best knowledge and certain. *g*

EDIT:
I have found the engines-addon and translated it too:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=f ... file%2czip

I would rememeber the translation from the Engines-Addon, its perhaps been overseen. *g*

[YuokiTani]

I would rememeber the translation from the Engines-Addon, its perhaps been overseen. *g*

no, never ... just to late yesterday.
file is updated, redownload should show german-translations.

[orzelek]

You also have small bug on steam turbines (or generators). When de-constructed all variants return Primary version of device instead of Secondary or Tertiary.

[YuokiTani]

You also have small bug on steam turbines (or generators). When de-constructed all variants return Primary version of device instead of Secondary or Tertiary.

same idea behind here ... not to fill your inventory with unwanted engines.
i can drop this method or change the recipes (no extra material use) if the players want this. it was a personal decision to keep it simple and the inventory clean.

[orzelek]

You also have small bug on steam turbines (or generators). When de-constructed all variants return Primary version of device instead of Secondary or Tertiary.

same idea behind here ... not to fill your inventory with unwanted engines.
i can drop this method or change the recipes (no extra material use) if the players want this. it was a personal decision to keep it simple and the inventory clean.

I'm not sure if it helps to keep inventory clean. If you need to move those you end up with surprise - different ones in inventory. So you would need to produce new ones to fill in previous role and then do something with Primary ones you just received.
I do admit that playing without bigger inventory mod would be difficult for me

One other thing from usability point of view:
Descriptions of various stuff are quite fun but they don't describe how stuff works. And most of items here are not "standard" and require some special handling or specific knowledge.
I looked at spreadsheets attached in the thread - didn't help to figure out what goes with what sadly. I didn't look at videos - I'm a fan of simple written instructions/hints tho.

[Nagshell]

I measured how good simple solid-fuel engine is efficient.
I used water only recipes on both solid fuel engine and gearbox.
Next time I'll try to measure real energy value of mechanical power. We'll see how good it is compared to boilers.
It's about 56% efficiency if you have free water.


Also Youki, can you tell me what idea is behind Generators?
According to spreadsheet they are not 100% efficient, while Steam Engines are over 100%. Why would I use worse ones? As it is now I think using Rensuir is just best way to make power, and it even works with mechanical power(i think, vanilla steam engines do ^^)

[Fatmice]

Tsk tsk, you guys are spoiled. You do realize there is no such thing as 100% efficient? The idea behind all Yuoki generators or whatever objects under energy production is power efficiency vs real estate efficiency. All Yuoki energy production buildings take up less space and produce much more power than any vanilla setup. This is the price you pay for convenience, along with them being biter magnets. So, using any Yukoi's power production is in essence giving aliens the middle finger, unadulterated alien explotation.

[Nagshell]

Tsk tsk, you guys are spoiled. You do realize there is no such thing as 100% efficient? The idea behind all Yuoki generators or whatever objects under energy production is power efficiency vs real estate efficiency. All Yuoki energy production buildings take up less space and produce much more power than any vanilla setup. This is the price you pay for convenience, along with them being biter magnets. So, using any Yukoi's power production is in essence giving aliens the middle finger, unadulterated alien explotation.

I'm fine with that, but Youki Steam Generators are over 100% efficient. Rensiur produces huge amount of power and it's 135% effective. That was source of question.
Another thing is usual realism vs fun factor. I think that Youki Ind. is not mod that is meant for players that wants very realistic gameplay.

[Fatmice]

You sure you are using the lastest verison? Rensuir were changed quite a few version ago.

[Nagshell]

You sure you are using the lastest verison? Rensuir were changed quite a few version ago.

So from mod files Rensuir is 1,35 effectivity (Not sure how that stat works exactly, but i think that it just produces more power)
While big electric generator is 0,92 effectivity
So at least one of them is better in terms of fluid energy -> electric energy exchange



As I said I looked at all fuels available in Youki and here comes:
-- I counted cost of using recipes vs energy value of fuel --
-- To count some of them I also checked how much energy it costs to produce non-fluid materials --
-- As base I counted all ores as free, and then counted energy cost of processing chain --
-- Name : Fuel energy per piece : Net energy gain from using recipe per piece produced --
Wood briquette : 9 MJ : 0,73 MJ
Packed Wood briquette : 36 MJ : -0,72 MJ
Coal Dust : 6 MJ : 0,63 MJ
Coal briquette : 19 MJ : 0,05 MJ
Coal Stack : 57 MJ : -0,71 MJ

Alien Fuel Cell : 300 MJ : 284,04 MJ <- Beacon friendly
Mixed Solid Fuel(coal) : 25 MJ : 12,02 MJ
Mixed Solid Fuel(air) : 25 MJ : -0,09 MJ <- Beacon friendly
Enriched Fuel Block : 38 MJ : 10,6 MJ

Full Battery Cell : 18 MJ : 13,89 MJ
Blocked Battery Cell : 38 MJ : 1,04 MJ

Transmuted UCA2 : 3 GJ : -6,29 MJ <- Beacon friendly
Pressed Dry Mud Ball : 10 MJ : 9,425 MJ (hard to count, as it's uses byproducts)
Infused Mud : 80 MJ : -5,0 MJ <- Beacon friendly

Honorable mention:
Wood -> Unicomp A2 -> Coal : 8 MJ : 3,88 MJ <- Beacon friendly

As you can see not all fuel recipes are good enough to use normally.
To use them you need to use beacons, that let's you dramatically cut production cost in some cases
For example Transmuted UCA2 with total -80% energy from 2 beacons makes that recipe : 3GJ : 2,35GJ

[YuokiTani]

Rensuir is overpowered, but have a major disadvantage if you use solar-power, because it shares the same priority. you need make sure you consume all power generated from rensuir + solar ... in other cases it cap's your solar-power generation and burn fuel.
if you can build a Rensuir you have no energy-problems, and in tech you at the end, so i think at this stage you don't care about efficency anymore.

because the mechanical-force generations is not calculated i'am sure its overpowered to. generators designed to use mechanical-force but can still use water/steam. in this case you have the benefit from better yi-boilers to compensate the less efficency and you save a lot of space. in some cases the overall power-network shows better power-balance and reaction with bigger generators.
in most scenarios you get problems to feed the big generators with water because they consume very much. (HEG - 6 pumps + obnisnk + short pipe)

your messures are interesting
i should add here that Stack's only for store. (they improve the stack/transport - MJ per item) - if you burn your material without big buffer you don't need stacks. but it's to easy to break it in simple ways down - i burned all my coal and procecced them too - nice free place now, but at this place are now the plastic production ^^ - coal now transmuted from unicomp to fix my mistake.

yes some things come overpowered with beacons, but you needed a hint to use beacons ^^ and find a place or good setup to manage all this.
it depends on personal playstyle to use this or other things. at the end it gives you some better energy-production but for this it "steals" your ressources over time that you use in normal vanilla-play for tech or improve other things

and it's not designed as a "replacer"-mod it gives only alternatives with small benefits.

and of course NO REALISM INTENED ... it's a game - if i want realism i would not play.

your questions guys, inspired me to this wp - thx for that
full size 2560 x 1440


you can also take a look into the wallpaper-thread for some internal values - some i integrated into the wallpapers.

[Nagshell]

your questions guys, inspired me to this wp - thx for that

you can also take a look into the wallpaper-thread for some internal values - some i integrated into the wallpapers.

Well, may I ask why on wp there are 29 Steam Engines?

You produce great graphical stuff Youki!

[Nagshell]

Theorycrafting Saturday
Part 1 Energy production before Blue Science!
I don't use modules/beacons in this part!
-------------
No Science
-------------
Power Setups:
Normal Boiler + YI Steam Generator for total of 52,5% efficiency

Possible Fuels:
Coal + Wood
-------------
Red Science
-------------
Power Setups:
Boiler 540/2 + YI Steam-Generator for total of 75,6% efficiency

Possible Fuels:
Top tier "Simple" - Coal Briquette (very simple and effective)
Top tier "Profit" - Alien Fuel Cell (huge power boosts, but needs 3 different resources and large chain)
Don't even try - Battery Cell chain (comparable to coal briquette but needs 5 different resources)

Alternatives:
At this point you can use Cimota Restructor to exchange one resource into another at cost of some power.

Modules:
You can produce YI modules, so stuff those green modules into everything to make even bigger profits!

UCA-2 Production:
Special Drill makes Dirt -> Washer get's Chunks out of Dirt -> Cimota gets UCA from Raw Chunks
Total energy cost is
1 UCA-2 from 26 MJ (and 1 MJ more if you also need to produce water)

Alien Fuel from UCA-2:
If you exchange that UCA-2 with Charged Chunks, Unicomp Chunks and Iron Ore
You can make Alien Fuel Cells just from UCA-2.
1 UCA-2 can produce 364,5 MJ fuel energy this way
---------------
Green Science
---------------
Power Setups:
Obnisnk AM + Steam Power Plant for total of 108% efficiency
Engines! (*not yet tested enough, it'll come in another post)
Sun Powered Stirlings + Accumulators (safe but don't produce enough energy
to sustain YI, otherwise perfect for vanilla)

Solid fuel from UCA-2:
Coal from UCA-2 -> Coal To Liquid - B -> Basic Oil Processing
-Petroleum to UCA-2
-Heavy Oil to Lubricant -> Lubricant to UCA-2
-Light Oil to Solid Fuel
1 UCA-2 produces 19,2 Solid Fuel blocks for net energy gain of 418 MJ
This upgrades Alien Fuel setup from Red Science

--------------------------------------------
There is possiblity that I miss some better chains
--------------------------------------------
I think that UCA-2 from Dirt is propably a little unbalanced
Comparison: UCA-2->Wood -> Petrol -> more UCA-2 chain makes 1 UCA-2 at cost of 60,8 MJ
-------------------------------------------

Incoming in next Saturday Theorycrafting
Part 2: Blue and Purple Science chains
Part 3: In-Depth Profits from War
Part 4: YI-Engines - How efficient they are?
Part 5: Summary with Modules and Example Power Plants and Fuel Managment Designs

[YuokiTani]

@Nagshell
your post reminds me to update my website, so i can show your work & calculations in a proper way. i would move this to a documentation, hint - thread, but YI is not a subforum - but i can copy & paste this and make a pdf to make this as docu at entry-site aviable. maybe someone would like to make a (factorio)-wiki - entry ?

after you have your Theorycrafting done, i will re-check and balance the most cheating stuff - because before i don't know how many tricks/cheats you can find
i suggest cimota->wood->gas->cimota cycle against the coal-oil-cycle. if you use mechanical-force keep in mind that water-lubrication is worse (SFE 1.5 with green-lubricant 2.5)
addon pfw is not finished - 1/3 done - but this part should be complete and balanced. a high-end-product makes according to paper more profit but maybe single-product-profit's in are total better. to balance this right a huge amount of playtime is needed
and for your work it's only fair if i rename a entity or item after your nickname

@Germans
if someone good in translation from german to english, and has time to translate some short-text please pm

[Nagshell]

your post reminds me to update my website

Can you link your website?

i suggest cimota->wood->gas->cimota cycle against the coal-oil-cycle.

What do you mean? I use Coal->Oil to make Solid Fuel, as it's very efficient.
Cimota->wood->gas->Cimota is very simple, but you need chemical plants(green science) and special drill dust is much more energy efficient that at the moment.
When I'll start with PFW I'll check two things, energy cost to make 1 UCA-2 and how many UCA-2 per minute it produces

[Nagshell]

Theorycrafting Saturday
Part 2 Energy production after Blue Science!
-------------
Blue Science and Purple Science
-------------
Power Setups:
Rensuir Turbine + Obnisk AM for a total of 121,5% efficiency

Possible Fuels:
Top tier "Simple v2.0" Reputation->Fuel Cell C - Very big energy gain, but very slow in production.
Beacons are not very effective unless you have like 3-4 ancient monuments in range.

Infused Mud + Transmuted UCA don't have positive energy balance without beacons!

Solid fuel from UCA-2 v2.0:
Coal from UCA-2 -> Coal To Liquid - B -> Advanced Oil Processing
-Petroleum to UCA-2
-Heavy Oil to Lubricant -> Lubricant to UCA-2
-Light Oil to Solid Fuel
1 UCA-2 produces 19,2 Solid Fuel blocks for net energy gain of 456 MJ
This upgrades Basic Oil Processing one from Green Science


Profits From War:
You need blue science working to produce Trade Nodes


And that's it from new things you unlock with end-game science ^^
In-depth YI-Engines and Profits From War in next parts.
------------
Accumulators
------------
Let's see how accumulators compare to each other:
Charge and Discharge rate are usually not important, as accumulator bottelneck is their storage.
Name - Storage - Size - Storage/Area

Red Science:
Vanilla - 5 MJ - 2x2 - 1,25 MJ per tile
Small Advanced - 2 MJ - 1x1 - 2 MJ per tile
Medium Advanced - 8 MJ - 2x2 - 2 MJ per tile
UPS Flywheel - 45 MJ - 3x3 - 5 MJ per tile (slow charge rate!)

Green Science:
Big Advanced Accumulator - 18 MJ - 3x3 - 2 MJ per tile

Blue Science and Purple Science:
SCD - 3,5 MJ - 1x1 - 3,5 MJ per tileesa
MCD - 14 MJ - 2x2 - 3,5 MJ per tile
BCD - 32 MJ - 3x3 - 3,56 MJ per tile
Crystal - 200 MJ - 2x2 - 50 MJ per tile
AQE - 108 MJ - 3x3 - 12 MJ per tile

Summary:
Small Advanced Accumulators are best Power/Price accumulators for almost whole game
Crytal Accumulators are very space efficient, but they are quite costly compared to others

My personal opinion about accumulators visuals:
Field of Small Advanced Accumulators is funny but they have same charge/discharge animation.
Medium Advanced have avesome animations and you'll be changing them into crystals later anyways.
Crystal Accumulator is not only best in terms of power, but it also looks very good.
Maybe they could flash a little less while charging.

----------
Most Youki Ind. mod contents are unlocked with Green Science,
that's why there are many chain upgrades available with Blue Science
Purple Science is joined because if you can produce Blue, then you also can produce Purple.

It's possible that accumulators should reward more for producing bigger ones, as they are harder to place.
----------

Incoming in next Saturday Theorycrafting
Part 3: In-Depth Profits from War
Part 4: YI-Engines - How efficient they are?
Part 5: Summary with Modules and Example Power Plants and Fuel Managment Designs