Electric locomotives ☸

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Kalabint
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Electric locomotives ☸

Post by Kalabint » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:59 am

So, after searching a bit on the Forum, i found out, that there is not a Topic exclusively to this one. [Means: Only about how to move a Train forward, or things needed for this]

Short:

A Electric Locomotive

Long:

A Electric Locomotive which you can use like a "normal" Diesel Locomotive.

To discuss:

IF Solution A:
Electric Locomotive with Accus, that the Energy is delivered by Accumulators.

Questions:
-How to power the Loks?
-Just let them Charge, when a electric grid is in range?
-Or at special Charging Stations? (almost a must, because Accus discharge at night...)
-What should be the Range of it? (It would be far less, when all the Wagons are loaded)

Thoughts:
-A normal Diesel Locomotive uses 600kW and has 10 Tiles, the max. Storage of that is 12.5 MJ, which holds on to 20.833 Seconds of Power.... not much in my opinion.

Example Specs:
  • Speed: Faster than Diesel
  • Acceleration: Better than Diesel
  • Power Source: "Classic" over Power Poles (Small or Medium) and Batterys (With Battery Wagon?)
  • Power Usage: Higher than Diesel (Means that huge Batterys are needed)
  • Energy Storage: Yes, on the Lok, with extra Battery wagons

IF Solution B:
Electric Locomotive is the "normal" definition. [My Favorite]

Questions:
-How should the Power be delivered?
==>1. With Substation, and the need of Full 100% Rail coverage?
==>2. Or the "Classic" way, of a small or Medium electric Pole at max. distance?
==>3. Powered Rails?
==>Other ideas?

Input:
-In the real World, 100% Coverage trough Wires is needed, so there is no "fall off" power, because the Train is (almost) always connected to the Power Grid.

Thoughts:
This comment here

Example Specs:
  • Speed: Faster than Diesel
  • Acceleration: Better than Diesel
  • Power Source: "Classic" over Power Poles (Small or Medium)
  • Power Usage: Higher than Diesel
  • Energy Storage: No (Maybe Battery Wagon?

IF Possible 1:
Electric Solar Locomotive: Run only over day.

Questions:
-Speed?
-Costs? Obviously the Price of a Locomotive plus ca. 3 Solarpanels

Thoughts:
-Maximal Speed [((Diesel max. Speed)/(Power Usage of Diesel Locomotive))*(Power Production on 10 Tiles)=] 28.86 KM/H?
It cant be fast, because a Solar Panel isn't giving so much Energy, or should it be possible to add "Solar-Wagons"?

Example Specs:
  • Speed: much faster than Diesel
  • Acceleration: much worse than Diesel
  • Power Source: Solar Panels (maybe with extra Wagons?)
  • Power Usage: Higher than Diesel (but obviously the Solar panels don't give much Energy)
  • Energy Storage: small one on the loc (Maybe Battery Wagon?)

IF Possible 2:
Maglev (derived from magnetic levitation = Magnetic "RailWay"): Superfast, Superexpensive, Huge Power Consumption, but with what specs? And should it also have extra Rails? And should it also be powered over the Rails? (I don't like this whole idea, seems too futuristic)

Example Specs:
  • Speed: much better than Diesel
  • Acceleration: much better than Diesel
  • Power Source: Rails
  • Power Usage: much higher than Diesel
  • Energy Storage: No

Powered by Poles
Image


Powered by Substations
Image


What do you think? I want to find out what of the Above solutions fits best for Factorio, so that all the Discussion is on one Thread and not spread out trough the whole Board.

Personally I would prefer the Solution B, because, who anyway uses Accumulators on Electric Locomotives? And: Finally a way, how to run Loks on Solar Energy ;)

Useful Links:

A comment about Train Tech Tree posibilities
A Super wide rails Request, not as usefull for Maglev trains as it seems (old Rail models)
FARL v0.2.4 (Rail Layer), a automated Rail Setup System, with electric Rails (or Electric Pole placer?)
5DIM's mod, with Electric trains, but the Mod uses a trick: It inserts Coal into the Energy slot, so it "runs" on Electric Power, but thats never gonna show up on the Power Grid Info Screen :/
Wagons Mod, not alive anymore


Edit: Reformulated the Post and added Pictures

Note: I will update this list every now and then
Last edited by Kalabint on Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:18 pm, edited 24 times in total.

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by ssilk » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:25 pm

Kalabint wrote:What do you think?
What of that quote is your suggestion? Please try to formulate a single suggestion, that can stand alone and which can be discussed. (some hints are in https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3394 )
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Kalabint » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:42 pm

ssilk wrote:
Kalabint wrote:What do you think?
What of that quote is your suggestion? Please try to formulate a single suggestion, that can stand alone and which can be discussed. (some hints are in https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=3394 )

I have more time this evening to write more, i will do a collection of ideas and will think up a few example pictures.

Also now i know that there are already more threads of this Topic :S

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by bobingabout » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:52 pm

I still think this should be a thing. Currently you can set trains (via modding) to be powered by electricity, there just isn't any method to deliver the electricity to the train (without crazy scripting)
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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Piranha » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:47 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to write a script for powering the track instead.. (X ammount of power per tile) - (distance from closest power source)..

Example with numbers:
Wire reach for Big Electric Poles is 30.. So every say 150 tiles you would need to put a transformer down to make the powered rail back to its peak potential.
[(5 Big Electric Poles x 30 Wire Reach) / 2] = 75 for half the distance or else it would power twice as far.

EX.
[Transformer @ 150kw][Big Electric Pole]---[BEP]---[BEP @75kw power on the rail]---[BEP]---[BEP][Transformer @ 150kw]




Some made up numbers:
Then have it so the train will run if it has 75kw energy on the rail. With the transformer giving 150kw power and losing 1kw per tile away from it. That way if spaced right every 5 Big Electric Poles would be the exact distance for the middle between them to not reach lower than 75kw.


-Obviously the number would need some research to make them balanced with the game.
-Power rails would be made of same material + electric circuits
-Solar Locomotive could be it's own unique piece where the top if it is solar panels (tweak recipe accordingly)
--Pros: would run on normal rails
--Cons: no power during the night


Hopefully that all made sense and gets more ideas flowing. I like the way trains are set up now though, seems good enough to me although making a more eco-friendly alternative may be nice for some who woul.... wait what am I saying? horrible idea, more red clouds for those pesky aliens!! :lol:

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Zeblote » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:08 pm

Electric trains should require fancy cables hanging along the rail, just like in real life. :D Magically getting powered by transformers sitting next to the rail makes no sense in a game striving for a bit of realism like this.

Like this (random images from google) except in isometric factorio art style. Should be really cheap to build though, like electric poles... except only for rails and fancy.

Image

Image

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by quinor » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:17 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail

That's cableless solution Zeblote; it's also reallife.

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Kalabint » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:21 pm

Zeblote wrote:Electric trains should require fancy cables hanging along the rail, just like in real life. :D Magically getting powered by transformers sitting next to the rail makes no sense in a game striving for a bit of realism like this.

Like this (random images from google) except in isometric factorio art style. Should be really cheap to build though, like electric poles... except only for rails and fancy
I fully agree with you :)

So, Solution B1, but how much Power should a Locomotive take out of the Grid? Because i think 600kW is not enough, normal Trains (with Cargo, and faster acceleration) take up to 8.8 MW (probably more).

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Zeblote » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:07 pm

psorek wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail

That's cableless solution Zeblote; it's also reallife.
But that's so boooooring.

I want as detailed graphics as possible :D

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Piranha » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:12 am

Zeblote wrote:But that's so boooooring.
He's got a point.. the late 1800's would seem pretty boring now.



Let's go new age, how about Maglev trains?
-No noise
-Lighting speed
-No wires
-No moving parts

Sounds awesome!


*Heavy Sarcasm*

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by katyal » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:47 pm

Maglev's been done? How about building a hyperloop?

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Kalabint » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:27 pm

katyal wrote:Maglev's been done? How about building a hyperloop?
I don't think that Maglev is already in the Game (as mod). But i also don't think so that its a good idea for the Game.

It would need a new type of (very expensive) Rails.
Also i think it would take a bit of the Fun of the Game, because Items can be almost transported instant to another Place. If integrated it should be unlocked as late as possible.
There is a Map, where you can travel 6 Min arround, without getting to the same Place, this would be much shorter :)

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suggestionsummary Electric locomotives

Post by Kalabint » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:04 pm

Userstory: Collect Electric Locomotive variants on one Place
Prerequisites: Open. Still searching for new Ideas
Game-value: More Transport Options (Railway based)
Developer-costs: Railway part and dependent parts, new graphics.
User-opinions: Indifferent


[Edited -- ßilk]

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Electric Trains

Post by Venrob » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:36 pm

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Train has internal buffer of energy (Like accumulators/roboport). When stopped at train stop, if in range of electric poles, recharges off of electric network.

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Re: Electric Trains

Post by quinor » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:49 am


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Re: Electric locomotives ☸

Post by GopherAtl » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:23 pm

I'd be in favor of rails as the source of power, and I'd actually go for 2 tiers of electric trains.

The first electric engines you could build would be the most expensive, being essentially one of the current engines, but with an electric instead of regular engine as well as an accumulator. They would charge their internal accumulator when resting on special powered rails, or possibly when next to a powering station beside the rail; this would happen when they're stopped at stations, and would effectively limit how far a train could go on a single charge, but would require only fairly minor changes to an existing rail network to put into action. These engines would be the same speed, possibly with slightly lower acceleration if anything, as the regular, coal-powered trains.

The third tier of trains, second tier of electric, would get power directly from new powered rails, meaning you would have to upgrade/replace your existing rail tracks to switch to them. The trains themselves would be a bit cheaper than the tier 2, not requiring an accumulator in their crafting. They'd be lighter - probably not shorter, since that would just complicate things at loading/unloading stations when transitioning - and for the price of laying the more expensive new powered rails, they would be faster, with better acceleration and a higher top speed, as well as being more energy-efficient than the tier 2 trains. The new rails themselves should be backwards-compatible, allowing existing and lower-tier engines to run on the new rails; in the case of tier 2 engines, they should be able to operate without concern for their level of charge on the new rails, further smoothing the transition up the train tech tree, and allowing a stop-gap fix to tracks too long for the tier 2 trains power storage to handle in one go by upgrading portions of the rail and allowing them to recharge mid-route.

That's just my thoughts on how I would approach it, personally; having laid that out, I have to say, I'm not sure how high-value electric trains would be in terms of gameplay enhancement. It's mainly a matter of appealing to and facilitating many players' desire to "go green" in their game worlds, more than actually enhancing the gameplay itself. Other train-based features, like official vanilla versions of tanker cars for carrying fluids, circuit logic systems for doing more advanced and precision control of trains as they enter and leave stations, and perhaps even ways to automate coupling/decoupling of cars, would all seem to add more to the mechanics and possibilities than electric trains.
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Electric trains

Post by Dan4815 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:01 pm

Joned -- ssilk
I would like, to trains will powered electricity. Player would have to build transformator and join with electricity networks. ;)

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Re: Electric locomotives ☸

Post by Lupoviridae » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:43 am

I would love to see a second tier of trains above diesel, including a second tier of rails for it to run on that are laid over existing rail networks.

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Re: Electric locomotives

Post by Custom » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Zeblote wrote:Electric trains should require fancy cables hanging along the rail, just like in real life. :D Magically getting powered by transformers sitting next to the rail makes no sense in a game striving for a bit of realism like this.

Like this (random images from google) except in isometric factorio art style. Should be really cheap to build though, like electric poles... except only for rails and fancy.
Image

Image
I really like this idea! Rail in Factorio has so much potential, definitely worth some specialist power lines for it.

Maybe even a high speed track that requires power too? :)

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Re: Electric locomotives ☸

Post by Killavirus » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:16 pm

Love this idea !!!

Why limit it to 1 type of electric train though why not a electric train that can do both roles???

Incentive to go electric:
increase the pollution of the diesel. (if you have large junctions, this would anger the biters, but a single train passing every 5 min would be fine)

How to power the trains:
Add overhead lines and battery operated trains to the repertoire, Charging is obviously a slow process which means your trains are sat there doing nothing whilst charging, but you can build a overhead line (at greater cost (a NEED FOR WOOD in the game YAY: for the overhead lines) but this means the trains can travel and charge at the same time, but this would realistically only be a local or hub solution.

Local Power:
I like the idea of having modular batteries on the train, this means you can balance the distance you need to travel, as one size is not going to fit all.

Balance:
Electric = very low pollution,
higher speed
same acceleration.
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