[0.17.7] Not-tutorial

[Jonathan88]

To begin, the not-tutorial is looking very good - both graphically, storywise and educationally. Clearly there is room for improvement, but as I'm focusing on the problems I've come across, this may come across as less positive as my overall impression is. Massive well done to everyone who worked on this!

The other thing is that I'm not sure exactly where the line is between serious issue, and bug (I suspect it's down to opinion). Therefore I will put all problems I found in here, as I didn't come across any 'bugs' as such.

FInally, I am by no means a new player (joined in 0.10, all those centuries ago...), but I have tried to view it with my 'newbie' hat on. I also used the attitude of "I'm just checking out the demo and won't really explore much beyond what I have to do".

I know you're meant to post each problem separately, but unfortunately there's no way I'm doing that here!


I have labeled what I consider to be the largest problems in bold.

Overall Conceptual Problems

• There's no real incentive or suggestion to research other techs - obviously I knew they were there, but a new player just following the objectives probably would completely skip them and rely on the burner technology for most of the scenario. Maybe just have a tip suggesting to research some better technologies to encourage going beyond the objectives.
• Key bindings are not really shown (other than some such as 'r', etc). I know the aim isn't to be a controls guide, but it does start off with 'wasd', giving the player the impression they'll get all the controls they'll need given. Perhaps it should prompt some of the more useful ones like extended info and ‘q'. This could be delayed into the later levels as it's not essential knowledge.
• I like the interaction of Compilatron, but in some situations very near the beginning, the objective wanted me to do one thing, and compilatron something else. This was a bit confusing, especially right at the start.
• The objective tree makes perfect sense to a logical programmer kind of person, however, the tasks are in reverse order from bottom to top. This is very unintuitive for non-technically minded people. I know how tree structures like this work, but it was still confusing for me! It needs to indicate subtasks in a less backwards way.

Specific Conceptual Problems

• One of the first objectives of 'give the compilatron some belts, drills and furnaces' is a bit aimless, in the way that the old tutorial seemed to be. Not quite sure how to improve this, but I completed it by just crafting it all and sticking it in the chest without really understanding why/what I was doing it for.
• Compilatron building the entire first setup is a bit of a large step. I can see what your aiming for in trying to introduce the player to one idea at once. Again I can't say an easy solution, but as much as I loved watching Compilatron build it, it seemed a bit sudden of a jump from the previous objectives.
• There's no suggestion to fuel furnaces automatically - a new player might not realise they can actually insert fuel with the inserter. Putting some coal on one side of the belt should be a fairly basic first step. In fact the whole 'two lanes' of belts may need explaining.
• The final objective is very intense - I agree with all you said in the FFF, and I think improving the warnings/expectation that the amount of attacks with increase will help fix this - clear instructions as to building up defences (craft walls, build x turrets - maybe compilatron builds example of automatic turret loading). Most importantly, getting your entire base destroyed for something you weren't expecting would be pretty off-putting for a new (demo) player.

Specific Problems with Individual Objectives

• After the first few steps (wasd controls), the 'baby steps' help from Compilatron could extend to 'left click to open' and 'right click to mine' - and importantly, the 'character screen' shortcut needs showing (I don't want to open the controls menu 1 minute into the game!) Working out how to open/mine the spaceship/stone is difficult, especially if coming from 'minecraft' controls.
• When Compilatron builds the example mine, it blows up the miner and furnace I already built there, setting off an alert. This is quite confusing/worrying to new players.
• When delivering 50 iron plates, new players may see that they are delivering correctly, and want to "fast forwards" instead of expanding production (think Infinifactory). Maybe a tip which activates once the first iron has been delivered prompting to expand the smelting.
• During the task of delivering 50 iron, Compilatron moves to the other assembler. Not sure if this is intentional - there is no objective to do with the second assembler yet. It confused me a bit.
• When you only have one assembler, using it to make circuits can lead to the player getting pretty stuck, as they need another assembler to build the wires (or at least I did!) Maybe Compilatron can pop over and give a hint after a while.
• The objective to craft the ammo requires the military research, but doesn't have that as a sub-objective (the pistol does, but that is below the ammo task).
• When the biters arrive in the rebuilt base, the player can go and walk up to them with no aggression, despite the warnings in the 'plot' to defend against them.
• The objective 'keep turrets loaded' isn't clear what to do - it finally seems to complete once you've done the other objectives? I tried filling the entire slot with ammo.
• Part of the second last objective (circuits per minutes) can be achieved by just hand crafting circuits. I accidentally completed the objective whilst crafting something, so the objective doesn't require any kind of automation.
• (This is the largest problem I had with the entire scenario:) I researched the tech 'logistics science packs' whilst doing the second last objective. When I finished the second last objective, it immediately skipped the last objective (research that tch) and I finished the scenario! I didn't even try to force this - I just managed to do all the research during the second last objective. Clearly this skips the main part of the scenario (biter waves) so is bit of an issue.
• Also upon completing the second last objective, the message 'New researches unlocked' comes up, but no new researches become available.
• Perhaps some hint as to place the turrets on the cliffs, especially on the east where it’s less obvious.

Difficulties for New Players

• When the tech tree is open, the game pauses. Although the music stops, a new player may not realise this. They may see the bar at 99% and decide to keep the tech tree open whilst they're waiting for the last 1%. Some kind of tip explaining the game is paused may help.
• When a miner runs out (of things to mine, not fuel), it is not obvious why it has stopped working (especially with the burners as their animation's less obvious). Compilatron could go over and point it out.
• When entering map view (if the player figures out the button) and then zooming back in to 'fuzzy radar view', it is not super clear that you are still in the map. WASD now do something completely different and you can't move your character anymore. Not sure how to fix - just some indication you're still in the map view perhaps.

Other Problems

• The total raw materials now seems to not include all the raw materials - iron gears seem to be a raw material now? Not sure if this is specifically changed for the scenario or not.
• The window that pops up telling you what you've unlocked has two problems: 1) the 'x' button is a bit large/in the wrong place, giving the impression that it does something other than close the window. 2) when doing a research with no items, the window pops up but is empty (this might be classified as a bug).
• Compilatron's messages are very tricky to read when zoomed in and it is moving around.
• Also Compilatron sometimes doesn't wait long enough to read its message - it needs a short wait before it heads back.
• When the biters attack, Compilatron gets attacked by very large hoards, but is invincible, so just ends up being a huge biter magnet! This kind of breaks the immersion that you're under threat.
• Compilatron is a little stuttery when building belts - part of me kind of likes this though, although I'm not sure how well it does for very first impressions.
• The cliffs and textures go off the edge of the map - I'm pretty sure this is already being worked on though.

Realism/Story Problems

• When the biters attack the spaceship wrecks, they should definitely explode (like the repaired assemblers end up doing), not just pop out of existence.
• The slowly approaching threat of biters is good, especially with the new amazing/horrific graphics! However, at any point the player can wander over to them and say hello with no consequences, which definitely makes them less scary. This may be quite tricky to overcome without making it very easy for the player to be killed before they get a pistol.
• On a similar note, when 'fleeing', you can run towards the biters, who pay no attention whatsoever. The biters seem to suddenly decide to be aggressive out of nowhere. Meanwhile Compilatron is running back and forth worrying, which seems a bit pointless when they're so friendly.
• During the final biter attack when they destroy the first base, the cutscene should be more zoomed in to appreciate the scary 'scuttliness' of the biters and make them more threatening. Also the music could do with being a bit more tense (rather than the normal calming background music).

Aaaand that's it. Please do ask any questions if you have have any!


P.S. I've already emailed in my screenshots in.

[abregado]

Ok, here I go. I wont address every point, as some are just clear that I need to change them, and others are already planned to be dealt with.

There's no real incentive or suggestion to research other techs - obviously I knew they were there, but a new player just following the objectives probably would completely skip them and rely on the burner technology for most of the scenario. Maybe just have a tip suggesting to research some better technologies to encourage going beyond the objectives.

Actually Im observing the opposite. The screenshots include a statement of whether the player did the optional stuff first. In most cases, players (new and old) are doing the optional stuff first. I imagine this could be due to FOMO (Fear of Missing out), basically that the option will disapear in the future so Id better get it asap.

One of the first objectives of 'give the compilatron some belts, drills and furnaces' is a bit aimless, in the way that the old tutorial seemed to be. Not quite sure how to improve this, but I completed it by just crafting it all and sticking it in the chest without really understanding why/what I was doing it for.

I agree, this is eventually change so that you can give Compilatron the stuff OR build it yourself. Currently detecting if the player has built a setup like that is incredibly challenging programmatically. *throws down the gauntlet*

When delivering 50 iron plates, new players may see that they are delivering correctly, and want to "fast forwards" instead of expanding production (think Infinifactory). Maybe a tip which activates once the first iron has been delivered prompting to expand the smelting.

Yeah, sadly many games teach you to be lazy in the wrong way! In factorio, building more always is faster than waiting. I guess human meatbags are bad at exponential concepts.

During the task of delivering 50 iron, Compilatron moves to the other assembler. Not sure if this is intentional - there is no objective to do with the second assembler yet. It confused me a bit.

I can see why that is super confusing. Compi is quite an eye catching little thing. Fixed.

When the biters arrive in the rebuilt base, the player can go and walk up to them with no aggression, despite the warnings in the 'plot' to defend against them.

Biter AI is not friendly to us level designers. I wouldnt expect this fixed until closer to release.

Perhaps some hint as to place the turrets on the cliffs, especially on the east where it’s less obvious.

Hmm... should I say? Biter AI gets all janky if they cant path to somewhere, so i didnt want to suggest putting turrets on cliffs.

The total raw materials now seems to not include all the raw materials - iron gears seem to be a raw material now? Not sure if this is specifically changed for the scenario or not.

This is just an anomaly on how Total Raw is calculated. The game is not used to having so many items "not hand craftable". Basically Total Raw actually means "Total items for me to start Handcrafting"

The window that pops up telling you what you've unlocked has two problems: 1) the 'x' button is a bit large/in the wrong place, giving the impression that it does something other than close the window. 2) when doing a research with no items, the window pops up but is empty (this might be classified as a bug).

Its placeholder. I made it in a day expecting it to be replaced. Please take it out the back and shoot it

[*]Compilatron's messages are very tricky to read when zoomed in and it is moving around.
[*]Also Compilatron sometimes doesn't wait long enough to read its message - it needs a short wait before it heads back.
[*]When the biters attack, Compilatron gets attacked by very large hoards, but is invincible, so just ends up being a huge biter magnet! This kind of breaks the immersion that you're under threat.
[*]Compilatron is a little stuttery when building belts - part of me kind of likes this though, although I'm not sure how well it does for very first impressions.

These are mostly due to Compilatron using Biter AI. I told the damn thing to stand still when it speaks but some cute robot helpers will never listen!

When the biters attack the spaceship wrecks, they should definitely explode (like the repaired assemblers end up doing), not just pop out of existence.

Actually the wreckage parts will stay after the attacks, and the biters will just destroy player built structures. The new art for the crashed spaceship should not be removed because it will be an interesting set piece.

The slowly approaching threat of biters is good, especially with the new amazing/horrific graphics! However, at any point the player can wander over to them and say hello with no consequences, which definitely makes them less scary. This may be quite tricky to overcome without making it very easy for the player to be killed before they get a pistol.

Im working on a an entirely new respawn loop for the Introduction, so the player can experience death without it effecting their desire to explore. It just is not done yet.

Thanks for the epic feedback!

[Jonathan88]

Wow thanks very much for reading and replying! Not many games I know where feedback gets this direct!

I hadn't considered the 'FOMO' in my pretence of being a new player - thinking about it again, if I was actually playing it for the first time, I probably would research the optional stuff first as you said!

Whilst I did find some issues with it, the compilatron is actually very impressive (and cute!), especially given it has been added at this stage in development! In fact the entire scenario is very impressive - I'm no programmer but I can imagine how challenging some bits are... *respectfully leaves gauntlet on ground*

Thanks for explaining some of the issues - given how many people tested the scenario, replying to all these 'general improvement' posts must have been a truly mammoth task! I'm very much looking forward to your improvements and any other subsequent scenarios!

The only thing I question is

Actually the wreckage parts will stay after the attacks, and the biters will just destroy player built structures. The new art for the crashed spaceship should not be removed because it will be an interesting set piece

At the beginning when the biters first start approaching, they attack and destroy the spaceship parts closer and closer to the players current base. I'm pretty sure these disappear when the biters attack them - at the moment they pop out of existence, whereas the buildings currently explode ('properly'!) I agree the art looks quite cool, and could be kept to make the map look cooler, but when the biters attack them, they currently disappear (unless I've completely misunderstood what you've said).

[abregado]

Oh yes, there will be some smaller chunks that are there to be eaten, or have pieces of them eaten away. The 6 pre-placed structures in the crash zone should be large set pieces.

Sorry for the confusion.