[0.17.1] intro too hard

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pichutarius
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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by pichutarius » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:33 am

i agree with Nulluhrzehn and bayoublue.
abregado wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:08 am
...
My expectation is that like many people, you were expecting a tutorial and played very lazy
...
The old tutorial and campaign asked the player to increase production for no reason.
...
Bilka wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:55 am
...
I would say that any expert pretending to be a noob very rightfully is getting overrun at the end. Because they are producing pollution like an expert, but fighting like a noob. Of course they will be overrun like that! Play and fight like and noob and everything will work out just fine.
...
im actually a little pissed by the tutorial/demo, and when we express our opinion, the devs blame us for not playing it correctly, which further pissed me off.

sorry designer, im disappointed by this map. it might be a good challenge map, but its NOT a tutorial/demo. new players doesnt care about what u mean by "consumption pressure". old demo did a better job, especially rebuilding the partially destroyed base. there is nothing wrong with "The old tutorial and campaign asked the player to increase production for no reason."

u asked for feedback, we give feedback, will u listen?

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by Bilka » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:01 am

pichutarius wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:33 am
Bilka wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:55 am
...
I would say that any expert pretending to be a noob very rightfully is getting overrun at the end. Because they are producing pollution like an expert, but fighting like a noob. Of course they will be overrun like that! Play and fight like and noob and everything will work out just fine.
...
im actually a little pissed by the tutorial/demo, and when we express our opinion, the devs blame us for not playing it correctly, which further pissed me off.
You are getting offended by a statement that you are taking out of context and voluntarily applying to yourself. My statement specifically addressed the few people who posted before me, saying "I am an expert but intentionally played like a noob and got wrecked" and then posted a screenshot where they have tons of factory and no defense (so not how a noob plays), not any random expert player.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by pichutarius » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:35 am

Bilka wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:01 am
You are getting offended by a statement that you are taking out of context and voluntarily applying to yourself.
no, im not offended. im pissed by someoneone's idea, that many veterans lose to a tutorial/demo sounds reasonable. whoever are the veterans (me or the few people who posted before) is irrelevant.

i like this game, the most enjoyable moment for me was figuring stuff in old demo, thats why some of us were so disappointed by the new demo.

but whether im offended is irrelevant, i hope dev find valuable feedback from us, not who is offended.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by dee- » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:44 am

Dying
- because of neglectment to build up defences
- caused by bad habit (affects vets more than newbies)
- aquired from pushover pre-0.17 biters
- and a greave pollution bug, which redered pollution almost nonexistant,
seems totally fine to me.

There are clues enough that there will be a MASSIVE amount of biters coming at you:
- the 100-200 + horde of biters when you flee to the east
- the mentioning that having a constant ammo/second production is necessary
- the explicit mentioning that MORE biters will be coming at you and you have to get your defences up
- the wave with a stick about TWO open ends (west, east)
- where on the east side you can see a wide open plain (much space for more (hypothetical) bases and biters)
- with both openings easily defendable by creating a wall and/or putting turrets on the cliffs and behind it
- it is generally better to overbuild in Factorio, so place down 20 times the stuff you think you need (turrets), because they don't even decay or, in this case, need electric power (the current turrets are so cheap it feels like cheating anyway)

And even if you mess up everything from this list, you can always:
- load back one of the checkpoints
- start anew with a readjusted mindset about the strength of the fixed 0.17 biters
- have learned how to properly defend a base as it was nt necessary to know this before 0.17 (because of biter-bugs)

I am still astounded why some people are worked up that much about a small quest-driven storyline that:
- has no permanent influence on any stuff on your other plays
- has no influence on the freeplay mode, which is the intended mode to play in
- can be redone easily
- and without the player to build up something before
- and even has checkpoints if you
- neglected to create savepoints yourself.

Really?

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by jotun » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:47 pm

New player here, just got horribly overrun attempting this, map version 0.17.9-1, easy difficulty. I played the demo and watched a couple Nilaus videos so I did come in with a decent understanding of how to set up production, but still new.

I never really thought it was obvious that the attacks would keep increasing to THIS degree. By the time that started to become apparent, I was already spending all of my time running between east and west to keep turrets loaded, so there wasn't much extra time to think about increasing production or building more defenses.

A scenario called "Introduction", which acts as a tutorial, especially on easy difficulty, should be EASY. This time pressure is just too much for a new player who is still trying to figure out how to effectively route materials through and around the base.

I think there just needs to be a limit to how large/frequent the attacks are, and meeting the objectives (like produce 25 mags per minute) should be enough to keep the attacks held off indefinitely

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by mward » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:01 pm

Let's stay calm: I'm sure the developers will fix the tutorial once the bug storm has subsided a little :D

The main problems with the tutorial are that it is not enough like the main game (more like a tower defence game) and it forces the player to play in a certain way (while the main game gives the player a huge amount of freedom as to how they want to play).

I think that these problems should be easy to fix:
  • Instead of "spawned-in" waves of biters, allow the biters to spawn naturally from nests. If the player wants to head out and destroy the nests: why not allow that?
  • It should not be possible to get into an "unwinnable" situation in the tutorial: as a last resort, Compy could drop some extra turrets
  • If the player refills the same turret a few times, Compy could suggest using a belt to supply the turret with ammo. With standard biter spawning there should be enough "breathing space" between attackes to sort out some automated defences

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by jotun » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:38 pm

I played it again, and while I'm not 100% sure, it SEEMS like it's just coded to send an infinite stream of them at you once your last research is almost done, until you finish it. Sort of like one of the early Starcraft campain scenarios where it's designed to have your base overrun at the same time that you're achieving the final objective.

If that's true, it means you'll be in some trouble if your research isn't going fast enough. You'll also be in trouble if the biters happen to knock out your power grid as soon as they get through your defenses, which I think is what happened to me on my first attempt.

One significant problem here is that the final objective doesn't feel like it's a final objective. There's no reason to think that you're just about to win the scenario when you finish that research, because it seems just like any of the previous research objectives. What's so important about researching those green science packs that it becomes a victory even as you face certain death?

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by dee- » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 am

There is no real time pressure. Events triger when you complete the objectives. So if you feels like being not ready to enter the next phase of the campaign, stall the last objective and get yourself and your base into a better position.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by pichutarius » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:40 am

dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 am
There is no real time pressure. Events triger when you complete the objectives. So if you feels like being not ready to enter the next phase of the campaign, stall the last objective and get yourself and your base into a better position.
"stall the last objective" seems like cheesing for me, because new players wont know and blindly finish the objectives one by one, and fall into the "trap".

if one think cheesing is ok, at least it shouldn't be in "introduction" in my opinion.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by dee- » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:43 am

pichutarius wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:40 am
dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 am
There is no real time pressure. Events triger when you complete the objectives. So if you feels like being not ready to enter the next phase of the campaign, stall the last objective and get yourself and your base into a better position.
"stall the last objective" seems like cheesing for me, because new players wont know and blindly finish the objectives one by one, and fall into the "trap".

if its not cheese, at least it shouldn't be in "introduction".
Well, being able to "stall" is true for every quest/goal/objective-oriented game, isn't it? Scripted games are state-of-the-art since how many years now? (sadly)

And because finishing those objectives in Factorio triggers cutscenes, new objectives, new maps areas, it's pretty obvious that the pace the game sets to you is directly connected to the pace you let the game have.
It's not like the game runs with its events happening totally unrelated (biter attack in 5 minutes, ready or not) to the things you do and accomplish (biter attack after objective "C" completed).
Last edited by dee- on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by pichutarius » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:45 am

dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:43 am
...
no it is not obvious to all, maybe to you.

some first time player will want to check out the game and advance the game through objectives, at least thats me.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by dee- » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:08 am

pichutarius wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:45 am
dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:43 am
...
no it is not obvious to all, maybe to you.

some first time player will want to check out the game and advance the game through objectives, at least thats me.
But if you rush through the objectives nearly every other game also lets you fall on your face, because your character has bad equipment, is of a low level, is missing a necessary stock of health potions, etc.

Doing the minimum to go through the campaign is guaranteed to make your life the most difficult at the end.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by pichutarius » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:37 am

dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:08 am
...
Respectfully disagree.

Its the level designer's job to guide the new player not to rush or stall the level.

The old demo did it, first playthrough each objective took me around an hour, im genuinely learning basics, like how to control both lanes of belts. Most importantly i enjoy it.

(Of course thats just my opinion, ppl have different taste.)

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by dee- » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:42 am

pichutarius wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:37 am
dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:08 am
...
Respectfully disagree.

Its the level designer's job to guide the new player not to rush or stall the level.

The old demo did it, first playthrough each objective took me around an hour, im genuinely learning basics, like how to control both lanes of belts. Most importantly i enjoy it.

(Of course thats just my opinion, ppl have different taste.)
The new Introduction took me 7 hours. Because I was in no hurry and played safe. Also I enjoyed it :)

I always assume the game's worst and dirty trick and try to prepare for the unknown (how any biters will there be? Are my defenses up to it? They never are, because I don't know how many biters will arrive. Do I lose something when I over-defend? No, I just pack the excess turrents into my inventory if I move on; no, it only makes my life easier, now and also in the future; no, as I cannot take something from this closed scenario into any other game. Are there undefended openings (to the east in the mission)? etc.)

And I respect your view. It seems to me we just come from different kind of schools. :)

Also, a tutorial kicking your a$$ is not strictly bad as it teaches you something: prepare for the unprepared, biters come in hordes larger than you'd expect, automate turrent refilling as you can't be there when the $hit hits the fan or you have trouble on multiple borders and always err to the side to over-do stuff in Factorio, don't be cheap.

The next time you play the tutorial you definitely will play with a different mindset and will beat it easyhanded. And this attitude will carry over to the game (mindset see above), so it is not only a tutorial to teach you the mechanics but also a tutorial that teaches you to keep yourself prepared and mistrust peace as biter attacks come at unexpected times, locations and strengths.

(If you play bad - if you play good, you will prepare and make sure there just are no biter attacks (Is this cheating again? :D ). This would be Step 2, which however is not possible in the scenario, so it teaches you the basic Step 1-stuff: prepare for biter attacks!)

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by pichutarius » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:15 am

You have a point. One cannot be too overly cautious. Indeed the demo warned us alot of times from the cutscene.

I guess the true complain i have is, its too different from freeplay and misrepresented it.

I played freeplay default setting, and the biters are not so different from .16, except assaulting their base is more difficult but im not complaining.

Demo on the other hand punish player for not being cautious. New player either give up and decide the game is not for him, or try to be cautious, win, bought the game and disappointed by the different freeplay experience.

Conclusion: cautious is not a bad thing, put it on the very first level might not be suitable, maybe put it in the last level of demo.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by milo christiansen » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:32 pm

I had heard the intro campaign was hard before I tried it, so I ended up building defenses like I would in an advanced freeplay game. Thank goodness I did, because I was almost overrun.

There are way too many enemies in this tutorial.

Also, there is an extra amount of difficulty tacked on: You are expected to build a decent little factory to produce ammo and science, but there is no way to cross belts. I ended up having to rebuild three times so that my coal belt didn't have to cross my iron and copper belts. Not having any of the belt machines or long inserters ended up making things far harder than they had to be. I can understand not wanting to confuse new players, but a tiny bit of confusion is better than just arbitrarily removing critical bits of the game.

Sure, you can stick around to try these out after the main tutorial is over, but who wants to stay in a base that is being overrun?

EDIT: I should clarify, my base was a lot smaller than I would have built since I couldn't route belts properly, and I didn't feel like putting much effort into building more than the minimum without proper tools. My wall only lasted because I had a long belt full on ammo, not because I was producing enough. I basically survived on my reserves, and the only reason I had reserves at all was because I kept the main factory small (and therefore slow, so the ammo factory had lots of time to work).

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by weaknespase » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:03 pm

I found if you don't have more than 4-5 electric mining drills you should be fine. It seems to ramp up too much with pollution because campaign code spawns the extra biters without the use of nests.

I think if you produce whatever you need beforehand and then shut everything down to allow pollution to spread, amount of biters storming the base might be minuscule.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by jotun » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm

dee- wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 am
There is no real time pressure. Events triger when you complete the objectives. So if you feels like being not ready to enter the next phase of the campaign, stall the last objective and get yourself and your base into a better position.
If we were talking about a near-final mission in an actual campaign, and the game was more clear about how that was working, then maybe that could be a reasonable expectation.

But this is likely the very first scenario that someone new to the game will attempt. And despite not using the word "tutotial" it's totally a tutorial up until the end.
milo christiansen wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:32 pm
Also, there is an extra amount of difficulty tacked on: You are expected to build a decent little factory to produce ammo and science, but there is no way to cross belts. I ended up having to rebuild three times so that my coal belt didn't have to cross my iron and copper belts. Not having any of the belt machines or long inserters ended up making things far harder than they had to be. I can understand not wanting to confuse new players, but a tiny bit of confusion is better than just arbitrarily removing critical bits of the game.
Yeah, by trying to keep things as basic as possible they kind of make it significantly more complicated. Underground belts and splitters would not be hard at all to understand, would make everything a lot simpler to manage, and would be a better representation of how freeplay works.
weaknespase wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:03 pm
I found if you don't have more than 4-5 electric mining drills you should be fine. It seems to ramp up too much with pollution because campaign code spawns the extra biters without the use of nests.

I think if you produce whatever you need beforehand and then shut everything down to allow pollution to spread, amount of biters storming the base might be minuscule.
Does the Intro or any of the Tips & Tricks even mention pollution and its effects? If so, I must have missed it (twice)

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by Mike5000 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:54 am

milo christiansen wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:32 pm
Also, there is an extra amount of difficulty tacked on: You are expected to build a decent little factory to produce ammo and science, but there is no way to cross belts. I ended up having to rebuild three times so that my coal belt didn't have to cross my iron and copper belts. Not having any of the belt machines or long inserters ended up making things far harder than they had to be.
Knowing in advance that the tutorial was nothing like Factorio I built a single circular belt with iron plates on one side and ammo on the other. This also acted as my ammo stockpile. Coal and copper plates I moved by hand.

This might make an interesting puzzle but it's worse than useless as a demo. People who might have bought Factorio would be turned off by the demo. While people who liked the demo would be unhappy when they bought Factorio and found out it was not all about tower defense.

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Re: [0.17.1] intro too hard

Post by elendiastarman » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:02 am

A friend of mine just played through the tutorial (0.17.11) and had some feedback. I also watched them for most of it and took notes myself. It's worth noting that while he has indeed played Factorio before, he's only played a few hours (that I know of). That said, he is also quite technical and analytical, so he did figure out some good strategies while playing.

Feedback from him:

* Tip on how to put an item back into inventory from hand should be one of the first tips.
* Not obvious that you're supposed to feed both iron gear wheels and copper plates into the second assembler.
* Should explain how to use both sides of the belt earlier.
* "constructing the system for that second [assembler] is non-trival and there is no instruction"
* Should've been told to build and bring pipes when evacuating.
* "I really only know how to put this broiler together because of the previous campaign. otherwise I think I'd be having a harder time here" - referring to the New Hope campaign in 0.16.
* Supposedly built and had a burner mining drill, but it disappeared somehow in evacuating?
* Not sure if he would've known he could feed coal into the boiler with an inserter.
* "wow I was unprepared for how much attacking was going to happen here" - About a quarter of the way through researching the logistic science pack.
* Doesn't know what the quickbar is, how to use it, or what made it appear.

Notes from me:

* Doesn't know about fast-replacing inserters.
* After the biters destroyed the first shipwreck piece, he went and got resources from the other two unprompted.
* Doing more infrastructure work before seeing what Compilatron wants after researching "Escape pod blackbox". Expecting to be attacked there?
* He's building each "Prepare to evacuate" component and placing them in that base instead of keeping them in inventory. Including the lab, but there's nothing new to research.
* He realized that there's nothing to research and mined that lab and then crafted the rest of the things.
* Didn't have coal so put wood in the boiler. Didn't know he could use solid fuel.
* Finally found the coal after chopping down all the trees to the left of the offshore pump. NOTE: found out later that this was intentional.
* Dude relocated the boiler to the coal patch! Very clever.
* Took me a while to realize why, but he's playing without the alt mode that shows icons on machines. Almost certainly because of alt-tabbing after evacuating.
* He did not notice a biter attack for several minutes; was busy working on infrastructure. Good thing the biters were forgiving and only destroyed one thing every minute or so.
* He's been producing a lot of electronic circuits despite them not being a requirement for anything. (Except a later objective, but even then, they're not used in anything.)
* Four assemblers (went down to two later) producing automation science without any producing ammo. Probably doesn't realize how important ammo will be. Probably will start once he has a turret.
* Up to five labs now. Still no ammo assemblers. Which is okay until he starts logistic science research...
* Finally made an assembler for ammo and is feeding it directly into the turret. And then, as I was typing that, relocated it a few tiles away.
* Did not understand why ammo wasn't being put in the turret (no explanation that turrets will only take 5 ammo from a belt).
* Finally discovered the quickbar. And has no idea what to do with it. Clicked a couple things (but not the item slots) and then left it alone.
* Intentionally paused research in order to build up ammo for fear of breaking the tutorial (e.g. by doing things out of order).
* Fortunately for him, he built the east turret less than a minute before the attack from that front. Also, first research after the pause is turret shooting speed 1; smart.
* Started building walls maybe a third of the way through logistic science pack research. Deploying them as shields about halfway through.
* Started getting overrun at the east side about 5/6 of the way through. All turrets out of ammo and defending with just a pistol. Amazingly survived.
* Eventually finished with six labs running, west side destroyed, east side holding out, and shooting biters with his pistol in the center.

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