Factorio Forums

TL;DR

Research that uses a science pack should require having researched the tech that unlocks that science pack.

What ?

In 0.15 there are a number of technologies that you can click to research before you've unlocked the required science packs making the science pack research a hidden prerequisite. My suggestion is for advanced electronics to be a research requirement ahead of mining productivity 4, nuclear power, advanced oil processing, advanced materials processing, advanced electronics 2, energy distribution 2, bullet damage 5, bullet shooting speed 5, military 3, shotgun shell damage 5, shotgun shooting speed 5 and other techs which need science pack three where they aren't already or logically it hasn't been provided by another prerequisite.

Why ?

For a lot of experienced players it likely has no effect on their lives, but it does add a huge quality of life, I don't have to remember which techs I need to research before I have access to another because it's right there. If I cannot craft the science packs I can't start the research so it makes sense. It'd fix the auto research mod (which doesn't know to research these hidden prerequisites anymore than I did at first and yes I'm going to go there and suggest they tweak the tech tree in the same way). The having to remember/search step of getting at researches is a pointless annoyance when most of the tech tree is logical progression, in 0.14 science 3 and alien science were both provided in the tech tree before any research that requires them why it was taken out in 0.15 I don't understand (In the same way no item that can be made is unlocked before all its intermediate parts have been (some done by limiting via science packs others by the tech tree))

JohnyDL wrote: It'd fix the auto research mod (which doesn't know to research these hidden prerequisites anymore than I did at first and yes I'm going to go there and suggest they tweak the tech tree in the same way).

You can choose which science packs you have already available in the latest version of auto research.

JohnyDL wrote: In 0.14 science 3 and alien science were both provided in the tech tree before any research that requires them why it was taken out in 0.15 I don't understand (In the same way no item that can be made is unlocked before all its intermediate parts have been (some done by limiting via science packs others by the tech tree))

That is probably because just all technologies require the science packs. It would probably mess up the tree structure, since most other technologies dont unlock so many techs which are also much deeper down the tree.

JohnyDL wrote: The having to remember/search step of getting at researches is a pointless annoyance when most of the tech tree is logical progression,

You can search for "science pack" in the search bar top left, and it will list you all techs that unlock science packs. No need to remember anything.

Azzinoth wrote:You can choose which science packs you have already available in the latest version of auto research.

You're right I can but that then means I can't blueprint my science set up and expect science to just run, I have to watch and wait for the science to finish building and then allow that new science extra clicking buttons or extra thinking remembering when setting it up.

Azzinoth wrote:That is probably because just all technologies require the science packs. It would probably mess up the tree structure, since most other technologies dont unlock so many techs which are also much deeper down the tree.

All research that required alien science packs either relied on Alien science themselves or had something that does rely on alien science, what I'm asking for isn't that every tech that needs science three has it as a prerequirement directly that's the messy option but that it's in the chain somewhere, the same way as Logistics 3 has Logistics 1 by implication that you have to unlock Logistics 1 to get to Logistics 2 and you need 2 to get to the

Azzinoth wrote:You can search for "science pack" in the search bar top left, and it will list you all techs that unlock science packs. No need to remember anything.

I can search "science pack" but that's like whole tedious seconds of clicking the search bar moving my hands to typing position on the keyboard typing it in moving my hand back to the mouse and the other to WSAD then looking through each to work out which one is blue, purple, yellow and grey

The old tech tree looked something like this https://wiki.factorio.com/images/Technology_tree.png

See Alien research over there (the right side in the middle next to laser turrets and science speed 2) it has lines leading to every tech that uses alien science packs that hasn't used alien science in a previous research recipe. There's a trace for example that leads to rocket 1 and because that's there you don't need it directly to the rocket silo because that relies on rocket 6 which gets from 5 all the way down to 1 which is covered. There are only 4 direct connections that need alien artifacts in 0.14 and yet every tech that needed them had to have alien artifacts researched at some point in the tree ahead of them. 13 techs with 4 links.

http://davemcw.com/factorio/tech-tree/ is a tech tree you can explore for 0.15 if you click on advanced electronics it'll light up the whole tech tree of what needs advanced electronics 1 that's got it somewhere in the tree, and yet there are research things in blue, purple and yellow sections that do need you to have researched advanced electronics 1 at some point to unlock the tech but they have no direct or indirect dependency on it

8 new dependencies could be added to fix it for blue science, 12 for purple, 24 for yellow ignoring incremental research (like infinite research and finite but leveled research) it's only 2 for blue, 6 for purple and 7 for yellow.

making the bare minimum
Advanced Electronics 1 for Advanced Oil Processing (which might be make better sense behind Advanced Materials Processing 2 but not need purple science)
Advanced Electronics 1 for Electrical Energy Distribution 2
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Automation 3
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Nuclear Fuel Reprocessing
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Coal Liquifaction
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Efficiency Module 3
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Speed Module 3
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Productivity Module 3
Advanced Electronics 2 for Kovarex Enrichment Process
Advanced Electronics 2 for Logistics System
Advanced Electronics 2 for Power Armour 2
Advanced Electronics 2 for Portable Fusion Reactor (which could rely on power Armour 2 though I like AE2 better as it allows more flexibility)
Advanced Electronics 2 for Personal Roboport 2 (which could rely on power Armour 2 though I like AE2 better as it allows more flexibility)
Advanced Electronics 2 for Military 4
Advanced Electronics 2 for Uranium Ammo (although I think behind Military 4 makes more sense than directly in this case)

Only 2 of which don't quite make sense as a direct link anyway. Advanced Electronics 2 only has 2 things it's currently needed for and Advanced Materials Processing 2 doesn't have any in spite of the fact they are necessary components of dozens of research recipes and all infinite research

JohnyDL wrote: You're right I can but that then means I can't blueprint my science set up and expect science to just run, I have to watch and wait for the science to finish building and then allow that new science extra clicking buttons or extra thinking remembering when setting it up.

But that are probably 7 clicks for the whole game... Its much more work involved to build your science production even if you use blueprints.

JohnyDL wrote: All research that required alien science packs either relied on Alien science themselves or had something that does rely on alien science, what I'm asking for isn't that every tech that needs science three has it as a prerequirement directly that's the messy option but that it's in the chain somewhere, the same way as Logistics 3 has Logistics 1 by implication that you have to unlock Logistics 1 to get to Logistics 2 and you need 2 to get to the

Okay, that makes already more sense to me. The links you posted are useful to make your point. If we connect the science pack research only with the most top part of each tree part which requires that science pack, we have only a small number of additional direct connections, but a much clearer tech tree. This is much more convincing for me than your first argument.

Actually it was what I asked for in the first place but maybe

JohnyDL wrote: or logically it hasn't been provided by another prerequisite

wasn't enough of an explanation.

And that's 7 clicks but it's a constant thing to be thinking about and checking it. I'd rather be able to dump it down and not think anymore you know ^_^ I've got huge systems I want to be setting up that are unique to each playthrough (which can be 2 Community ones a week and 1 personal one) I don't want to be worrying constantly about this in the background when I'm 2000 tiles from home.

Similar "problem": You can research portable solar panels before you researched solar panel. *scratches head*

yeah that one I hadn't noticed XD

This would be a terrible idea. Adding all the prerequisites into upgrades for bullets, turrets, laser turrets, shotgun shells, rockets, robot follower count, robot damage, flamethrower damage, grenades, cannon shells (no doubt more) would be a huge mess. Especially since Advanced electronics already has like 8 children tech.

Altough I feel there is definite room for improvement. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a bit more clarity around Advanced Material Processing 2, like making it a prerequisite for Automation 3 and maybe some other purple techs like Coal Liq, Logistic Network. It just seems so lonely at the moment with no children at all.

Also I have to agree when anyone says that Solar Panel should be a prerequisite for Portable Solar Panel - neither tech is overloaded with connections and it just seems so logical, at least as long as PSP requires solar panels to craft.

Another good one could be Advanced Electronics 2 -> Personal Fusion Reactor, as it requires both the high tech science packs and the blue circuits - neither tech is particularly overloaded.

BlakeMW wrote:This would be a terrible idea. Adding all the prerequisites into upgrades for bullets, turrets, laser turrets, shotgun shells, rockets, robot follower count, robot damage, flamethrower damage, grenades, cannon shells (no doubt more) would be a huge mess. Especially since Advanced electronics already has like 8 children tech.

Yeah I kind of agree with you that maybe it's not strictly speaking necessary for the incremental research because they aren't the ones that help you progress in the game really which is why I said this

JohnyDL wrote:8 new dependencies could be added to fix it for blue science, 12 for purple, 24 for yellow ignoring incremental research (like infinite research and finite but leveled research) it's only 2 for blue, 6 for purple and 7 for yellow.

making the bare minimum
Advanced Electronics 1 for Advanced Oil Processing (which might be make better sense behind Advanced Materials Processing 2 but not need purple science)
Advanced Electronics 1 for Electrical Energy Distribution 2
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Automation 3
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Nuclear Fuel Reprocessing
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Coal Liquifaction
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Efficiency Module 3
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Speed Module 3
Advanced Materials Processing 2 for Productivity Module 3
Advanced Electronics 2 for Kovarex Enrichment Process
Advanced Electronics 2 for Logistics System
Advanced Electronics 2 for Power Armour 2
Advanced Electronics 2 for Portable Fusion Reactor (which could rely on power Armour 2 though I like AE2 better as it allows more flexibility)
Advanced Electronics 2 for Personal Roboport 2 (which could rely on power Armour 2 though I like AE2 better as it allows more flexibility)
Advanced Electronics 2 for Military 4
Advanced Electronics 2 for Uranium Ammo (although I think behind Military 4 makes more sense than directly in this case)

2 extra on AE2 wouldn't be that bad. Although I'll stress this again Direct Dependencies are the messy way of doing it some intermediate step wouldn't necessarily be a problem in most cases, might slow some people down or change the default directions some people might normally take in the tree but it'd definitely prevent new players (and me) from getting confused and frustrated.

Oh yeah and adding solar panels to portable solar panels too now

I just posted a dup of this (I blame the search function for no reason other than the one search I made didn't find this ) and I'll admit I didn't give it this much thought, and there are some concerns here that could cause problems.

Other options to fix the main problem (you can have a tech node available to research with no clue where its science pack is unlocked):
1) Draw the science pack in the icon for the node. Not a huge fan of this as any time it's changed (by the devs or mods) that icon would need changed, manually.
2) Somewhere on the screen, any unlocked science for it has an obvious warning listed, with a picture of the tech tree node that contains the science pack you need. You can click that icon to go to that tech tree node.
3) A big warning when you "research" something that you don't have the packs for, perhaps with a "never warn me about this again" checkbox.

I personally like 2 and 3, together.

For me this is a non-issue (and it took me a while to even understand what the OP was about).

When I want to research something, I look at the science pack requirements. If it requires a science pack I don't already produce, I check how to build the science pack first. everything after that comes naturally.

Plus, I am usually spending so much time planning and extending my base that all currently available research gets researched long before I finish building. So I realize I can't keep researching and end up having to expand my base even further to accommodate the next science pack - so I never run into this problem.

Yeah but I use Auto Tech and plan my factory even the things I can't produce while I'm waiting for my kick start routine to get me bots, at which point I can walk away from the factory and it'll get to rockets almost without intervention.

The Auto tech mod maker considers it a bug in the game code and I do in some ways agree with him so he won't add the fix to his mod which is just designed to recurse the tech tree and so is compatible with any new science packs (in mods or base) that are explicit about where they're used rather than this edge case that might be (and I hope is) fixed later.

I just made a mod to add these dependencies.
For a vanilla game it adds 66 new dependencies

[quote="Nidan"]I just made a mod to add these dependencies.
For a vanilla game it adds 66 new dependencies

Have to try to see if Rseding91 is right: "If every research had everything it required as a prerequisite the technology graph would be a web of lines." -> Not a bug.

My own bug report about this was moved to "Balancing" by Klonan.

This is one thing I absolutely admire about Factorio: you can do unbelievable things with mods. Even fixing stuff where the devs made a wrong decision. (Okay, "wrong" )

I chuckle at this whole discussion, because as a new player I find the entire tech tree (beginning at 3 layers down) to be so convoluted and confusing that probably only the most experienced players would even notice these issues. The UI for the tech tree needs work.

Factory Lobster wrote:I chuckle at this whole discussion, because as a new player I find the entire tech tree (beginning at 3 layers down) to be so convoluted and confusing that probably only the most experienced players would even notice these issues. The UI for the tech tree needs work.

Fear not! After adding all those dependencies you can remove Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines, and Advanced Oil Processing doesn't need to depend on Oil Processing, making the tech tree nice and simple!

On a more serious note, having Explosives depend on Military 2 and instead dropping Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines seems like a good idea.

Nidan wrote:

Factory Lobster wrote:I chuckle at this whole discussion, because as a new player I find the entire tech tree (beginning at 3 layers down) to be so convoluted and confusing that probably only the most experienced players would even notice these issues. The UI for the tech tree needs work.

Fear not! After adding all those dependencies you can remove Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines, and Advanced Oil Processing doesn't need to depend on Oil Processing, making the tech tree nice and simple!

On a more serious note, having Explosives depend on Military 2 and instead dropping Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines seems like a good idea.

On an even more serious note, could we please get a tech tree that is visible in its entirety? So that we can scroll up and down the thing and see what the hell is even going on?

Factory Lobster wrote:

Nidan wrote:

Factory Lobster wrote:I chuckle at this whole discussion, because as a new player I find the entire tech tree (beginning at 3 layers down) to be so convoluted and confusing that probably only the most experienced players would even notice these issues. The UI for the tech tree needs work.

Fear not! After adding all those dependencies you can remove Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines, and Advanced Oil Processing doesn't need to depend on Oil Processing, making the tech tree nice and simple!

On a more serious note, having Explosives depend on Military 2 and instead dropping Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines seems like a good idea.

On an even more serious note, could we please get a tech tree that is visible in its entirety? So that we can scroll up and down the thing and see what the hell is even going on?

try http://davemcw.com/factorio/tech-tree/

JohnyDL wrote:

Factory Lobster wrote:

Nidan wrote:

Factory Lobster wrote:I chuckle at this whole discussion, because as a new player I find the entire tech tree (beginning at 3 layers down) to be so convoluted and confusing that probably only the most experienced players would even notice these issues. The UI for the tech tree needs work.

Fear not! After adding all those dependencies you can remove Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines, and Advanced Oil Processing doesn't need to depend on Oil Processing, making the tech tree nice and simple!

On a more serious note, having Explosives depend on Military 2 and instead dropping Military 2 from Rocketry and Landmines seems like a good idea.

On an even more serious note, could we please get a tech tree that is visible in its entirety? So that we can scroll up and down the thing and see what the hell is even going on?

try http://davemcw.com/factorio/tech-tree/

But that's not in-game, which I think Factory Lobster would want (I certainly do, and it's not like this would be some revolutionary new 'technology', lots of games have fully scrollable tech trees).

For my next mod, I wrote some code that automatically rebuilds the whole tech tree so that everything that is unlocked by a technology has all its ingredients become a dependency of that technology, and then removes any redundancies.

It doesn't become "a web of lines". In fact it gets simpler, almost boringly so.

I didn't make it to "fix" the weird stuff like portable solar panels not requiring solar panels, I did it so I could mess with recipes and have the tree adapt automatically.