Make save game overwrites less dangerous

[malventano]

Summary

Playing different scenarios overwrites the auto save file.

The purpose of an auto save is to protect you from things that happened before you were able to save, meaning recent history, and the user would then reload that more recent save instead of their older manual save once returning. This wouldn’t apply to that other map that you stopped playing a month or year ago, and those playing across multiple maps would end up with some multiple of additional saves for each and every map they were playing. It seems excessive to create this many additional saves, and that additional data might cause folks to overflow their steam game sync maximum, increasing the amount of unsync’d data that is lost in case their local system drive fails.

[BlueTemplar]

This seems more like an issue that Valve (or any other backup service that people might use) should handle, not Wube ?
What is the Steam game sync maximum these days ? Can you increase/decrease it ?

[malventano]

This seems more like an issue that Valve (or any other backup service that people might use) should handle, not Wube ?
What is the Steam game sync maximum these days ? Can you increase/decrease it ?

It’s 1GB per game IIRC, but it’s easy to blow through that with just a few large bases if they each had their own set of autosaves per map. Point being nothing else keeps autosaves of each item you’ve ever worked on - it only autosaves the things currently open, meaning the currently open game/map. Doing this for all maps a person makes will just makes their save game folder an unwieldy mess.

[BlueTemplar]

The "mess" issue could be fixed by simply using sub-folders ?
Once you start having a lot of Factorio games, and especially start playing modded, you're IMHO better off just ditching Steam, and running one Factorio folder for each game, which keeps things cleaner and gives you total control over Factorio and mod versions !

[malventano]

Since it's been 3 years and we hit yet another major release with this glaring issue still present, I tried submitting another bug. It was immediately moved to duplicates without explanation, even though there is no other active bug report about this issue. Either the mods are getting in the way of the devs (only mods have participated in these bug reports / threads IIRC), or the devs just don't care about this particular bad/dangerous UX design. Not sure what else to say here other than let it be known that I spent more time than should have been necessary trying to get this one fixed.

[coppercoil]

I guess devs think this is not a bug, just lack of feature that would be good, but... it’s 101st enhancement in the list.

Dangerous save is not a software bug because it follows specification. Yes, it’s by design . So, this is a UI/UX design flaw. This also may be serious despite it’s not a bug that developers are used to fix. In the other hand, there can be other flaws that affect much more players.

What I miss is a dev communication that would let us know they agree there’s a flaw that will be fixed... someday...

[ssilk]

I tried submitting another bug. It was immediately moved to duplicates without explanation, even though there is no other active bug report about this issue.

Bad timing? (Version 0.18....) I won’t excuse that but maybe it’s that? In any case I’m sure that’s not because of ignorance, more like that it is not really a bug.

[malventano]

I tried submitting another bug. It was immediately moved to duplicates without explanation, even though there is no other active bug report about this issue.

Bad timing? (Version 0.18....) I won’t excuse that but maybe it’s that?

I patiently waited for 0.18, confirmed the issue still exists, and then submitted the bug report - as a bug present in 0.18. ...or am I missing what you meant to say there?

Edit: I see you had added more context there. The first bug report (3 years ago) was marked as not a bug and the mod suggested to make a feature suggestion. I had noted the same issue, saw the bug report was marked as not a bug, and made the feature suggestion as requested by the mod. 3 years have passed with no developer attention on this issue, and my last attempt to get developer attention was immediately moved to duplicates. I’m honestly not sure how else to get this addressed. It’s something significant enough to lead the user to overwrite the ‘wrong’ save, without so much as a confirmation while doing so. A very simple solution has been proposed, but if it goes multiple years / major releases without getting on the devs radar, then I’m out of options and I guess folks will just keep inadvertently overwriting their saves after starting a new map.

[ssilk]

I mean you should try it later (1-2 months) again and explain in detail why you think it’s a bug.

[malventano]

I mean you should try it later (1-2 months) again and explain in detail why you think it’s a bug.

I see no point in doing that if each time it has been attempted over the course of three years, those reports have been immediately shot down by moderators. It’s entirely possible that a dev has not seen any of those reports, nor this thread, since no devs have commented in any of the related threads.

Also, it’s been clearly explained why it’s a bug/issue. If folks have to wait 3 years and after that period of waiting, are told they should wait a few more months, over such a simple issue to fix, I’d argue the problem might be with the bug reporting mechanism and not with those attempting to make the reports. If you go back to the original bug report, multiple folks all experienced the same issue, and after so long it’s likely that those who have recently been burned by this saw it ignored for so long that they just assumed it would never be corrected.

The first mod to mark the initial report as not a bug claimed it was working as intended, yet didn’t appear to grasp what the issue was. Had that mod just left a dev to see the report, this could have been fixed years ago...

[Koub]

Bad design is not a bug, it's just bad design. There's not much for us to do, we who think that the savegame management system is suboptimal, except hope that enough people give sensible arguments and suggestions in this thread to convince the devs :
1) They should do something about it
2) Help them choose the right mechanism that fits most needs, including beeing as foolproof as possible.
All that without forgetting that the devs have no moral obligation to follow the community's wishes, because ... in short, they're the devs.

[malventano]

Bad design is not a bug, it's just bad design. There's not much for us to do, we who think that the savegame management system is suboptimal, except hope that enough people give sensible arguments and suggestions in this thread to convince the devs :
1) They should do something about it
2) Help them choose the right mechanism that fits most needs, including beeing as foolproof as possible.
All that without forgetting that the devs have no moral obligation to follow the community's wishes, because ... in short, they're the devs.

Getting caught up in the semantics of bad design vs a bug has caused a thing that has caused folks to inadvertently overwrote their prior work to go uncorrected for literally years. It’s a thing that is wrong and should be fixed. It is simple as that, and the available mechanisms have not gotten the devs attention for years now, so it is those mechanisms that have failed thus far. This is likely a 1-2 liner to correct in the code, not asking for a complete overhaul of the save dialogue.

Also, this thread ended up becoming a dumping ground for every other save related suggestion, most of which having zero to do with the issue that was initially brought up, so it’s no wonder that we haven’t gotten anywhere with respect to this particular suggestion thread.

[Ghoulish]

This is likely a 1-2 liner to correct in the code, not asking for a complete overhaul of the save dialogue.

Noticed you used the word likely. So like me, you too don't know the complexities involved.

People are looking to be saved from themselves - I wasn't paying attention! I clicked something I shouldn't have! What would happen if someone at Wube hit enter, or saved a file and they never bothered to check what was in the input field? Or an accountant? When you send some money via your bank? I agree it's less than ideal, to say the least, daft design? Sure. Could be better? Yep. It's a low priority thing for me, when there is already a real easy solution - pay attention to what you click.

I do want to add that having pop up confirmation boxes is not a desirable solution to me. They're so superfluous.

Are you sure you want to exit?

Confirm file deletion!

[malventano]

Noticed you used the word likely. So like me, you too don't know the complexities involved.

Yes, 'likely', as in give or take a few lines of code. I'm not looking at the Factorio source so I couldn't give an exact number of lines needed. Either way, it's a simple tweak to resolve an issue that is significant to those who have been burned by it.

People are looking to be saved from themselves - I wasn't paying attention! I clicked something I shouldn't have! What would happen if someone at Wube hit enter, or saved a file and they never bothered to check what was in the input field? Or an accountant? When you send some money via your bank? I agree it's less than ideal, to say the least, daft design? Sure. Could be better? Yep. It's a low priority thing for me, when there is already a real easy solution - pay attention to what you click.

It’s not about saving people from themselves. This is a matter of a particular behavior being the expectation for a particular action. In this case, save of a ‘new’ thing should not default to overwriting some ‘old’ thing. It doesn't work that way in any other application or game - Factorio is the oddball here. A reasonable person will expect the 'usual' behavior, and having an 'unusual' behavior here is dangerous since a single operation (press enter or hit save) in that scenario will overwrite a file that should not be overwritten. Simply changing the default to blank on a new game forces the user to set a new name for the new map. It's not Rocket Science (tm).

I do want to add that having pop up confirmation boxes is not a desirable solution to me. They're so superfluous.

Are you sure you want to exit?

Confirm file deletion!

I agree that another confirmation is not desirable. This was reflected in my most recent bug report, and I was really only adding it as an alternative at the start of this thread. The need for the overwrite prompt goes away when the default behavior stops trying to overwrite the wrong save when starting a new map.

[netmand]

It’s something significant enough to lead the user me to overwrite the ‘wrong’ save, without so much as a confirmation while doing so.

corrected. Please don't imply that I have the same experience as you. However, I do think that there should be some confirmation logic. I personally don't think of this as a bug, more of a user experience improvement request (i.e. idea/suggestion); It's obviously something you feel strongly about. I'm convinced this is something that'll get the attention it deserves... eventually.

[malventano]

It’s something significant enough to lead the user me to overwrite the ‘wrong’ save, without so much as a confirmation while doing so.

corrected. Please don't imply that I have the same experience as you. However, I do think that there should be some confirmation logic. I personally don't think of this as a bug, more of a user experience improvement request (i.e. idea/suggestion); It's obviously something you feel strongly about. I'm convinced this is something that'll get the attention it deserves... eventually.

I caught it before it happened to me, then I found this existing bug report, where others had caught it as well, some of which appeared to have gotten burned by it, so it's not just me. Just because it didn't happen to you, or because it doesn't bother you, that does not mean it is not an issue that should be addressed. The devs are gearing up for a 'final' release, and this is the sort of thing that should be addressed prior to that point. That won't happen if the mods bury all related bug reports for several years, considering it 'working as intended'. I seriously doubt the developer that wrote that save code intentionally sought the behavior that exists currently, which by definition makes it a bug.

[netmand]

I seriously doubt the developer that wrote that save code intentionally sought the behavior that exists currently, which by my definition makes it a bug.

...again corrected to my satisfaction. Definitely we all have differing definitions of how a bug is defined. To your extent I do not agree. To me this is an idea/suggestion.

I think we both can agree that this needs attention.

But my point is that there are more important things they will be addressing. And if it indeed as easy as you are guessing, they may slide it in at some point and surprise us all.

At the very least we're keeping the topic alive, yes?

[malventano]

Yeah, I'm with ya, and it's likely low priority, but I'd hope it gets addressed eventually, and the track record so far isn't looking great. Bug or not, major or minor, a reported issue going multiple years seems a bit on the extreme side of things

[Squelch]

I think this is what might be called a feature request for a polish item. The save system currently meets all of the criterion required, but no more. MVP or minimal viable product is the technical term.

That said, it is frustrating, and unwelcome, but as we, or more correctly Wube, move towards version 1.0,, these types of issues can be addressed with the knowledge and confidence that the underlying framework is working absolutely correctly and safely.

I fully expect to see things prettied up as we go forward.

[Twinsen]

There are many reasons for the current behavior. Typically you are expected to save over your previous save to avoid file cluttering. If not, you will typically only change the last digit(s), e.g. no_spoon_playthough_try_2_3 - > no_spoon_playthough_try_2_4, so selecting your last save is preferred.

Also we really don't like treating the user like an idiot and confirming any possibly harmful action.

Nonetheless, in order to avoid problems, I added an overwrite confirmation in a few situations

• if the selected save is saved in a newer version than what you are about to save
• if the selected save has more playtime on it than what you are about to save

If the selected save has more than 5 hours of playtime on top of what you are about to save, the confirmation text will add an extra warning.