Factor 1000 for energy

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ssilk
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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

Post by ssilk »

For me it is this: If it uses physical constants (and Watt is one) then it should be somehow in scale of them. I have no problem with a factor 10 discrepancy. 1000 watt vs. 100 ... no problem. I have no problem if it uses for example "FactorioPower" (FP) or something like that.

But 1 vs. 1000 is a problem. No, not a problem it is just a WTF. :)

It's the same as if I say
"My car has 90.000 horsepowers"
"WHAAATT???"
"Yea. Seahorses."
":) WTF?!?! :)"
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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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TGS wrote:Because 'realistic' does not consider the abstraction of a game. Nor is it particularly needed. This is a game. I don't know why everyone needs it to be 'realistic' in so many ways I mean really... why is that so important to so many people? I'm genuinely curious.
Because the game intends to mimick reality in some way, though this does not mean that everything in there is strictly realistic. Such a huge difference in a real-life unit (thus clearly intended to be comparable with reality) is disturbing if you're familiar with this unit.
To illustrate the point, imagine a game where you cook hamburgers for customers. It is probably not realistic - for example, your meat may never spoil, your ketchup does not cost anything, etc. Still, if in the game you cook a 200kg piece of meat on the grill during 10 hours then put it in a 20m-wide hamburger bread to serve a single, normal-sized human customer, something feels off...
Like ssilk said, this would not be an issue if the unit was the FactorioPower or the Zebuglorg, but when it uses real-world unit with real-world-inspired machines, a 1000 factor is something of an immersion-breaker.

TGS wrote:I mean they can make up whatever they like, but humans know that joules and watts equal energy.
Actually, the watt is a unit of power, not energy... :ugeek:

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

Post by BurnHard »

Couldn't have said it better :)

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

Post by TGS »

Rwn wrote:
TGS wrote:Because 'realistic' does not consider the abstraction of a game. Nor is it particularly needed. This is a game. I don't know why everyone needs it to be 'realistic' in so many ways I mean really... why is that so important to so many people? I'm genuinely curious.
Because the game intends to mimick reality in some way, though this does not mean that everything in there is strictly realistic. Such a huge difference in a real-life unit (thus clearly intended to be comparable with reality) is disturbing if you're familiar with this unit.
To illustrate the point, imagine a game where you cook hamburgers for customers. It is probably not realistic - for example, your meat may never spoil, your ketchup does not cost anything, etc. Still, if in the game you cook a 200kg piece of meat on the grill during 10 hours then put it in a 20m-wide hamburger bread to serve a single, normal-sized human customer, something feels off...
Like ssilk said, this would not be an issue if the unit was the FactorioPower or the Zebuglorg, but when it uses real-world unit with real-world-inspired machines, a 1000 factor is something of an immersion-breaker.
I have to disagree to be perfectly honest with you. Because you are making an internal correlation between 'real world' power (energy) values with the game simply because it uses the term watt. You are obviously not the only one, but I don't see why this an issue. Surely we are capable of suspending our correlative and progressive understanding of reality to play a game. Simply adding a Factor 1000 to the values is not going to instantly create a sense of realism. It'd help sure, but there are other factors to consider. Besides, if this is really an issue for people. Mod it?
Rwn wrote:
TGS wrote:I mean they can make up whatever they like, but humans know that joules and watts equal energy.
Actually, the watt is a unit of power, not energy... :ugeek:
Umm I didn't say otherwise? Joules and watts measure energy. "Energy is measured in SI units of joules (J). Common types of energy transfer and transformation include processes such as heating a material, performing mechanical work on an object, generating or making use of electric energy, and many chemical reactions." directly from the Wikipedia entry on energy. Now obviously the main difference is that Energy would refer to the watt/hours which simply isn't referenced in this game at all vs watts which equate to the amount of power available. But it's all energy in the end. I didn't mention it as a unit specifically, because you could use whatever 'unit' you want when you are dealing with fiction. It is a game. As I said they could use Factons for all it matters. Hence why there is no point referring to them as 'units' of power. They are words used to describe energy, be it electrical or mechanical. They are used to describe the fuel value of Coal in the game as well which is not electrical. Hence energy, not power.

The main points I am trying to get at is that the basis of this thread is creating more of a link between reality than there is or should be in the game imo. Misconceptions are being made to even further this link based simply on the fact that it uses terms we are familiar with. My suggestions are, try to suspend your association OR mod it to fit the values you are comfortable with. But keep in mind it might break balance and might not work as well as you think in your own internal assumptions.

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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TGS wrote:Umm I didn't say otherwise? Joules and watts measure energy. "Energy is measured in SI units of joules (J). Common types of energy transfer and transformation include processes such as heating a material, performing mechanical work on an object, generating or making use of electric energy, and many chemical reactions." directly from the Wikipedia entry on energy. Now obviously the main difference is that Energy would refer to the watt/hours which simply isn't referenced in this game at all vs watts which equate to the amount of power available. But it's all energy in the end. I didn't mention it as a unit specifically, because you could use whatever 'unit' you want when you are dealing with fiction. It is a game. As I said they could use Factons for all it matters. Hence why there is no point referring to them as 'units' of power. They are words used to describe energy, be it electrical or mechanical. They are used to describe the fuel value of Coal in the game as well which is not electrical. Hence energy, not power.
Your posts does imply that joules equals watts. Also watt/hours? speed of power change? acceleration of energy amount?
You forgot to quote the most important part in that Energy page when comparing joules and watts.
Energy - Wikipedia wrote:The SI unit of power (energy per unit time) is the watt, which is simply a joule per second.
TGS wrote:The main points I am trying to get at is that the basis of this thread is creating more of a link between reality than there is or should be in the game imo. Misconceptions are being made to even further this link based simply on the fact that it uses terms we are familiar with. My suggestions are, try to suspend your association OR mod it to fit the values you are comfortable with. But keep in mind it might break balance and might not work as well as you think in your own internal assumptions.
Yea it does bring the game down a little if you know your vacuum cleaner has 4 times more power then steam engines. I can ignore that, but same time I'm quite confident the "balance" does not break with the switchs of units or by multiplying everything. I might try it with mod. Thanks for suggestion.
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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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rk84 wrote:Your posts does imply that joules equals watts. Also watt/hours? speed of power change? acceleration of energy amount?
You forgot to quote the most important part in that Energy page when comparing joules and watts.
Energy - Wikipedia wrote:The SI unit of power (energy per unit time) is the watt, which is simply a joule per second.
My posts don't 'imply' anything that isn't correct. We're getting into serious technicality here and this is exactly the sort of "OMFGREALISM" that we're talking about avoiding. People trying to pull me up on a very VERY specific technicality which I'm not even incorrect on. A joule and a watt are energy. If you're going to argue that point then we are going to have to agree to disagree. I use the term 'energy' because the game leaves the REAL concept of measurement out entirely. But it's all energy. I'm not the one defining it, the game defines it. With some realism, but not much. Now the whole point of what I'm saying is that we don't need that much realism. I seem to be 'fighting' this battle on multiple threads. I get that many many many many of you view this as a straight up simulation and expect it to be realistic, but it's not and that's okay.

I'm not even against multiplying the values by 1000 or whatever. But I am personally saying I don't feel that it is necessary. If people are struggling with 'getting it' or 'understanding' it then it's probably an internal thing. Not to be insulting or antagonistic here but I think we have a few OCD people here that really struggle with things that don't fit in their idea of what is 'right' with regards to the game and it being uh... a game.

I really think someone should come up with a 'realism' mod that addresses all these issues of realism rather than trying to push it onto the core game. I personally prefer games not to be too realistic (unless that's what they're going for). Gives them much more room and freedom imo. I'm all for having realism as well, just not to the point where it has to mirror real life in numbers and function.

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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Joule is work, watt is energy. That's a small, but important difference. Even in a game. Otherwise you could not be able to store the energy in accus. Not in the game nor in reality.
And again: We are not for pure realism, we are against ridiculousness. :)

When I where a child we had a model-railway. And I liked to drive the trains on it in the fastest speed that works. My fasther said: "Son, this is ridiculous. Trains driving this speed would be faster than speed of sound."
I liked it. ;)
But when getting older I see, what he meant. And with the power in factorio it is exactly the same. There is just a border, where something begins to get stupid, when not in about size of the reality.

Hm. More arguments. :)

You are right in that way, that this is a point, which can split the players into two groups. The ones, which want to have realism, and the others, which want to have a good game. I mean for a good game a good way thru the middle is the right way, but I can't speak for the others.

Other argument is: Sometimes it is good to have something hyper-realistic and sometimes a (obviously) non-realistic way is better. For the power etc. the simulation is now very realistic and so I mean, that the amounts of energy should be realistic, too. For the inventory it is not; I would find it funny, if the character says something like "It feels like I'm sweeping", when the inventory is full. :)
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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

Post by TGS »

Lol you're still describing energy. However you wanna describe it in its specifics. It's still energy. The collection/acquisition or the storage or the usage. It's still all energy. This is what I'm talking about with regards to simplification and abstraction. You're arguing specifics that are not displayed nor are they relevant.
ssilk wrote:When I where a child we had a model-railway. And I liked to drive the trains on it in the fastest speed that works. My fasther said: "Son, this is ridiculous. Trains driving this speed would be faster than speed of sound."
I liked it.
But when getting older I see, what he meant. And with the power in factorio it is exactly the same. There is just a border, where something begins to get stupid, when not in about size of the reality.
I understand this sentiment, in fact it's the first post in this thread that does actually make sense to me. However I err on the side of the kid who is just having fun playing with a toy. Not the adult who is making an unnecessary mental link between the model train and the real thing. You are not playing with the real thing. You don't need to think in real terms lol. Imagination is good, use it! :P

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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TGS wrote:... A joule and a watt are energy. If you're going to argue that point then we are going to have to agree to disagree...
I respect your view on the whole topic of realism, but confusing and mixing up power and energy (watt vs joule) is just wrong, even in a game, thats just like using "seconds" for measurement of speed (the train is 10 seconds fast) or distance (the next spawner nest is 10 seconds away). This kind of information is worthless :)

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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BurnHard wrote:
TGS wrote:... A joule and a watt are energy. If you're going to argue that point then we are going to have to agree to disagree...
I respect your view on the whole topic of realism, but confusing and mixing up power and energy (watt vs joule) is just wrong, even in a game, thats just like using "seconds" for measurement of speed (the train is 10 seconds fast) or distance (the next spawner nest is 10 seconds away). This kind of information is worthless :)
Wikipedia wrote:In physics, energy is one of the basic quantitative properties describing a physical system or object's state. Energy can be transformed (converted) among a number of forms that may each manifest and be measurable in differing ways. The law of conservation of energy states that the (total) energy of a system can increase or decrease only by transferring it in or out of the system. The total energy of a system can be calculated by simple addition when it is composed of multiple non-interacting parts or has multiple distinct forms of energy. Common energy forms include the kinetic energy of a moving object, the radiant energy carried by light and other electromagnetic radiation, and various types of potential energy such as gravitational and elastic. Energy is measured in SI units of joules (J). Common types of energy transfer and transformation include processes such as heating a material, performing mechanical work on an object, generating or making use of electric energy, and many chemical reactions.
I'm not going to let this go because we're essentially arguing technicalities based on realism. If you're going to argue that energy or a unit of measure for energy no matter how the unit of measurement is described is somehow NOT energy then you're approaching it from an angle of 1. Extreme realism 2. Expertise. Which is fundamentally wrong because this is a game. It is not real life. It uses multiple forms of energy. Not simply one. It does not strictly adhere to reality. Not only that, energy is energy. No matter how technical you want to get about how it is described. By all means show me specifically in any technical and scientific literature where it specifically says that a joule OR a watt is NOT energy.

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

Post by BurnHard »

Joule=energy

Watt= Joule per second = Energy per timeunit = power

So Watt cant be "only" energy by definition, the factor "time" is important.

equivalent: km is a unit for distance but km/h (distance per timeunit) is speed.

You would never argue that both km and km/h (or miles and miles per hour) are both the same and express the same value (distance from A to B), right?

The correct use of the units is already ingame: If you have an accu that can store 1000 Joule of energy, you can get 1 Watt power for 1000 Seconds, or 10 Watt power for 100 seconds, or 500W power for 2 seconds etc.
Last edited by BurnHard on Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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I'm not going to let this go because we're essentially arguing technicalities based on realism.
Hm. Now it begins to get philosophic. I like that. :)
Ok. Either we speak from energy, as "energy", defined for example in wikipedia or by Newton, or we speak from "energy" as a game-thing. Now why don't you say "game-energy"?
Or "Hüdihü"?
... or "Ratzapatza"?

I've no problem with that: Many games use "coins" instead of dollar. Or points. But when they use dollar, they keep in the "area of the same value". A new house in such a game doesn't cost 1.50$, it costs 150.000$ (Edit: 150,000 of course). I see no difference if I speak from money or from energy: Both has units.

And to joules vs. watts: Both can be assumed as "energy". But Joules is stored energy. Like the gasoline in your car. And Watt is "moving" energy, when the gasoline is burning and used to drive your car. Not quite scientific explanation, but the difference is most important, because the first one includes the time. If I burn 1 liter gasoline in one second I get about 8 Megawatt. That's much! (not quite sure with the 8 megawatt) If your car would have 8 Megawatt as a motor and would be able to bring it on the street, you would be sequeezed to a 1 cm thin plate. :) Factorio tries to make here realistic dependencies: Driving a car takes energy: The energy from the coal is used to drive the car and the speed depends on used energy. Those dependencies are at some places and can be seen, when looking into the definition of top-speed and so on. For that calculations it is most important to make a difference between the stored energy and the moving energy.

Or in other words: Energy is not energy, not in realism and not in this game! :)

Edit: 1 kg gasoline has about 44 mega joule of energy (not 8, I was wrong). It would look much, much, much, much brighter than this, when burned with oxygen: http://youtu.be/sab2Ltm1WcM
:)
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Re: Factor 1000 for energy

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TGS wrote:I have to disagree to be perfectly honest with you. Because you are making an internal correlation between 'real world' power (energy) values with the game simply because it uses the term watt. You are obviously not the only one, but I don't see why this an issue. Surely we are capable of suspending our correlative and progressive understanding of reality to play a game. Simply adding a Factor 1000 to the values is not going to instantly create a sense of realism. It'd help sure, but there are other factors to consider.
I don't think anybody is asking for "instantly creating a sense of realism" ; I'm totally fine with transport belts moving alone, some guy being able to craft electronic devices with his bare hands or having research laboratories inventing new items by themselves. Sacrificing realism for more fun is a no-brainer to get a good game.

However, that's not the point here: it's essentially a cosmetic change, with no gameplay impact and probably a very small correction in the code, that would improve the game's immersion - maybe not for everyone, but at least for people familiar with it, and I guess engineers are not that rare among Factorio players... So why no go for it? It's not like it's a first step toward a secret agenda to make the game completely realistic at the 3rd decimal... Ultimately, this is no different from pointing out a spelling mistake somewhere and suggesting a correction.
TGS wrote:Umm I didn't say otherwise? Joules and watts measure energy. "Energy is measured in SI units of joules (J). Common types of energy transfer and transformation include processes such as heating a material, performing mechanical work on an object, generating or making use of electric energy, and many chemical reactions." directly from the Wikipedia entry on energy. Now obviously the main difference is that Energy would refer to the watt/hours which simply isn't referenced in this game at all vs watts which equate to the amount of power available. But it's all energy in the end. I didn't mention it as a unit specifically, because you could use whatever 'unit' you want when you are dealing with fiction. It is a game. As I said they could use Factons for all it matters. Hence why there is no point referring to them as 'units' of power. They are words used to describe energy, be it electrical or mechanical. They are used to describe the fuel value of Coal in the game as well which is not electrical. Hence energy, not power.
TGS wrote:I'm not going to let this go because we're essentially arguing technicalities based on realism. If you're going to argue that energy or a unit of measure for energy no matter how the unit of measurement is described is somehow NOT energy then you're approaching it from an angle of 1. Extreme realism 2. Expertise. Which is fundamentally wrong because this is a game. It is not real life. It uses multiple forms of energy. Not simply one. It does not strictly adhere to reality. Not only that, energy is energy. No matter how technical you want to get about how it is described. By all means show me specifically in any technical and scientific literature where it specifically says that a joule OR a watt is NOT energy.
No offense meant, but I really think you're mixing many things up ("power" is not a form of energy which happens to be electrical, it's a different physical concept; others have pointed out how they differ). That might be the reason why you don't understand why others might feel concerned by this magnitude issue - and again I assure you, such a wide discrepancy can be as disturbing as seeing a 200kg meat piece on the menu at a restaurant or having an ordinary-sized meal priced in the tens of thousands of dollars. It's not about nitpicking over a 10% error nor even about doubling or tripling a value somewhere, but about a factor 1000!

Anyway, I think this power/energy issue is off-topic here and I regret to have brought it up (but I'd be glad to discuss it somewhere else if you want - in the "off-topic" forum for example), but in a way, this convinces me that Factorio can be an excellent way to get attuned with non-trivial physical concepts in a playful way - all the more reason to get the magnitude of the units not totally off the road as long as it doesn't negatively affect fun ;)

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