Flying spitters

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KoblerMan
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Flying spitters

Post by KoblerMan »

Flying... what?
Yeah. My suggestion: introduce a new enemy type, flyers that can shoot globs of acid just like the spitters.
Why would we EVER want this?
Right now, the game only has 3 enemy types (excluding evolution states): biters, spitters, and worms. As we know, worms are static defenses for the nests, but I'm counting them because they can attack.

Adding another type of enemy - flyers - could create some much needed variety here. Obviously their biggest advantage would be ignoring cliffs, structures, walls, and bodies of water while moving (unless traveling with ground forces, more on that below). Their default attack would have to be a ranged acid spit. Even if you see just one flyer, you know there will be more where that came from, so you have to plan accordingly. It would keep players on their toes, because past a certain evolution factor, you suddenly have to watch out for death from above!

Since I saw the suggestion for biters using themselves as landfill, I really liked this idea but thought it would cause too much disruption for the player if biters could permanently create paths through water for themselves - personally I feel that ability should be reserved for the players and using landfill. Flyers could pose the same threat of crossing bodies of water without allowing them to spread bases. In areas with high pollution reaching "biter zoos", it would encourage the player to defend against flyer attacks or simply march in using landfills (or use artillery, or a spidertron) and destroy the nests outright.
Balance concerns
Since flyers would directly affect the aliens' tactics and strategy, there are a few design considerations to make them manageable for the player:
  • Coordination: Flyers can either attack on their own if crossing bodies of water is inevitable, or provide air support for biters and spitters. They would need to move at the same speed as biters and spitters during joint attacks, to avoid having their air support arrive too early or too late. For joint attacks, flyers would travel along the same path as biters and spitters to avoid splitting up or getting too far ahead.
  • Health and damage: I would imagine flyers have slightly less health than their spitter counterparts, but deal the same amount of damage and have the same attack rate.
  • Defenses: What types of hand weapons and turrets would work on flyers? Since the player can already mouse over their own flying bots and hold C to shoot them (or spacebar with the flamethrower), I would think any hand weapons would still work on flyers. Gun turrets and laser turrets would probably have no issues either. Flames from flamethrower turrets might still deal damage to flyers, but only take aim and shoot at ground targets, so they would be useless in attacks exclusively carried out by flyers.
  • Expansion: Obviously, as a player, killing off expansions and preventing new ones from appearing would be very difficult if flyers could create new nests. The best way to prevent this would be to simply not allow them to create expansions without their ground unit counterparts. This way, nests separated by water and "biter zoos" on islands would no longer be harmless in the sense that none of the aliens could ever reach you, but they still would be prevented from taking new territory.
  • Evolution: Since flyers would be quite a powerful threat, small flyers would probably come into play around the same time or a little bit after medium spitters, at around 45-50% evolution factor. In general their spawn probability and large/behemoth status would increase at about the same rate as spitters, albeit with that initial offset. Additionally a new "flyer spawner" might have to show up and be colored blue, in keeping with the current color convention. It would spawn only biters at first, then it would start spawning small spitters when spitters first appear, then spawn flyers from the point flyers start appearing.
Conclusion
I think flying enemies would add diversity to the game, pose an interesting but manageable extra challenge for the player, and incentivize killing off islands of "biter zoos" to prevent flyer attacks. It's something I'd really love to see. But what do you guys think? Should this be a thing, or am I off my rocker?
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MassiveDynamic
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Re: Flying spitters

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Great idea...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=90024&p=514747&hili ... es#p514747
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=88524&p=508998&hili ... es#p508998
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=88524&p=508998&hili ... es#p508998
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84237&p=498748&hili ... es#p498748
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71708&p=492815&hili ... es#p492815

and as Koub has said...
The subject of flying enemies already been suggested at least in these threads :
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61380
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39289
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53259
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50179
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50674
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=139
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25043
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21489
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13260
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10294
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18597
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3565
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2126

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KoblerMan
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Re: Flying spitters

Post by KoblerMan »

Oops. :oops:

I guess as the adage goes, "there's no such thing as an original idea". This applies here too.
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Re: Flying spitters

Post by MassiveDynamic »

It just proves that we all want flying enemies

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Re: Flying spitters

Post by Sad_Brother »

KoblerMan wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:08 pm
I think flying enemies would add diversity to the game, pose an interesting but manageable extra challenge for the player, and incentivize killing off islands of "biter zoos" to prevent flyer attacks. It's something I'd really love to see. But what do you guys think? Should this be a thing, or am I off my rocker?
Why flying enemies are so wanted? It is so bad idea in my opinion.
  • passive flight is too slow and active flight is constant energy demand - constantly flying beast is nonsense
  • flying enemy has no obstacles - protection become so boring
  • new pathfinder and coordinated attack controller for what? just another boring minor treat?
Let`s think about something more sane and diverse:
  1. Jumpers: slow walk but fast jump so keep common speed in horde. Larger versions walk slower but jump farther. When jump, ignores obstacles and mines. Flame turret aims at landing spot.
  2. Worms: ability to dig to place, where the horde found enemy (except concrete). While dig underground speed is slow, cannot be detected except mines (and miners?), immune to any damage damage except explosions.
  3. Bitertron: slow armoured unit. Ignores obstacles like Spidertron. One hit destroy any building and vehicle. If cannot see enemy spawn random biter. On death create big acid splash.
What are you think?

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Re: Flying spitters

Post by KoblerMan »

MassiveDynamic wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:36 pm
It just proves that we all want flying enemies
I suppose. But it's been paraded around before that player opinion cannot guarantee the addition of new features. :)
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Re: Flying spitters

Post by KoblerMan »

Sad_Brother wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:43 pm
KoblerMan wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:08 pm
I think flying enemies would add diversity to the game, pose an interesting but manageable extra challenge for the player, and incentivize killing off islands of "biter zoos" to prevent flyer attacks. It's something I'd really love to see. But what do you guys think? Should this be a thing, or am I off my rocker?
Why flying enemies are so wanted? It is so bad idea in my opinion.
  • passive flight is too slow and active flight is constant energy demand - constantly flying beast is nonsense
  • flying enemy has no obstacles - protection become so boring
  • new pathfinder and coordinated attack controller for what? just another boring minor treat?
I disagree with every single point here. Including your first point which doesn't make any sense.
Sad_Brother wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:43 pm
Jumpers: slow walk but fast jump so keep common speed in horde. Larger versions walk slower but jump farther. When jump, ignores obstacles and mines. Flame turret aims at landing spot.
I like this idea. :)
Sad_Brother wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:43 pm
Worms: ability to dig to place, where the horde found enemy (except concrete). While dig underground speed is slow, cannot be detected except mines (and miners?), immune to any damage damage except explosions.
You're going to call flyer AI complicated, and then suggest this? Also, worms' role is static defenses, if they could burrow too it would be like playing whack-a-mole every time you attack a base.
Sad_Brother wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:43 pm
Bitertron: slow armoured unit. Ignores obstacles like Spidertron. One hit destroy any building and vehicle. If cannot see enemy spawn random biter. On death create big acid splash.
Awesome, but impractical. This one would probably sooner show up in a mod like being a boss in Rampant.

As I explained before, I think flyers would be a good challenge without switching things up too much.
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Re: Flying spitters

Post by Sad_Brother »

KoblerMan wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:09 pm
I disagree with every single point here. Including your first point which doesn't make any sense.
You disagree with my opinion? You can, no problem. But remember, not all likes flying enemy.
KoblerMan wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:09 pm
You're going to call flyer AI complicated, and then suggest this? Also, worms' role is static defenses, if they could burrow too it would be like playing whack-a-mole every time you attack a base.
That AI is not complicated: enemy nearby out of reach -> chance to dig to that place and guard new spot. Spawner would spawn new worm later. Use explosions against them. Nothing complicated.
But if your base has a wall but no mines... You can have a surprise behind your wall.
KoblerMan wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:09 pm
Awesome, but impractical. This one would probably sooner show up in a mod like being a boss in Rampant.
Yes. Kind of boss. For fun, challenge and "no repair, just rebuild".
KoblerMan wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:09 pm
As I explained before, I think flyers would be a good challenge without switching things up too much.
And this is your opinion. And here I disagree with both halves. ;)

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Re: Flying spitters

Post by Gamatron332 »

Don’t get salty my people. Factorio is about hate for trees not each other. :)

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Re: Flying spitters

Post by Sad_Brother »

Gamatron332 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:10 pm
Don’t get salty my people. Factorio is about hate for trees not each other. :)
Hate is bad. Trees clean my pollution. I love trees. 8-)

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Re: Flying spitters

Post by KoblerMan »

Sad_Brother wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:27 pm
Gamatron332 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:10 pm
Don’t get salty my people. Factorio is about hate for trees not each other. :)
Hate is bad. Trees clean my pollution. I love trees. 8-)
We can talk about biters every day of the week, but when it gets down to brass tacks, trees are the REAL enemy in Factorio.

Also it's not pollution. It's happy gas.
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Re: Flying spitters

Post by Koub »

MassiveDynamic wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:34 pm
[...]
Now I can get myself a new job :mrgreen:

On topic now ... All people who want more enemies, more diverse enemies, more threatening enemies forget the devs only intend the fighting to be a secondary aspect of the game, providing a small pressure early game, and another resource sink beside research endgame. Fight in Factorio is not designed to be thrilling, challenging, ...

And for people who want moar boosters biters, the modding scene is very active, and enemies as diverse and wicked as possible can be modded in.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Flying spitters

Post by MassiveDynamic »

Koub wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:24 pm
MassiveDynamic wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:34 pm
[...]
Now I can get myself a new job :mrgreen:

On topic now ... All people who want more enemies, more diverse enemies, more threatening enemies forget the devs only intend the fighting to be a secondary aspect of the game, providing a small pressure early game, and another resource sink beside research endgame. Fight in Factorio is not designed to be thrilling, challenging, ...

And for people who want moar boosters biters, the modding scene is very active, and enemies as diverse and wicked as possible can be modded in.
You’re welcome Koub

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