Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

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Tami
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Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by Tami »

Actually, there is a big issue in the game, that is not clarified as bug, but cause weird behavior in your factory. For example, if you have an ammo clip, one with 5/10 and one with 6/10 ammo, you can mix without any problems. Also you can mix science flasks, that have different conditions. But if you base is growing and things are more and more automated, you will run into the issue, that somehow items with lower than 100% condition totaly shutdowns your factory. The issue is, you can't track these items, nor they can be filtered. Even items filters are set to 100% condition by default (no health bar), items with lower than 100% condition may get delivered. It will be more complicated, if you use belts to deliver items. Each item on the belt has its own property, for example, if you have 1000 walls on the belt, there is a change that any wall is lower than 100% condition and if you try to craft something, like military science, you can't mix these walls.

There are some possible ideas to fix this issue:
* Change receipes, that allow different conditions of items, to only allow 1 of this kind. For example military science would take 1 wall instead of 2 walls.
* Allow damaged items to be mixed with undamaged items inside a processing machine. So an assembler, that has a 50% condition wall and a 100% condition wall would have 75% condition, round up, so 100% and 99% = 100%
* Add more slots for processing machines in the case that may process damaged items. So a assembler, that produces military science would have 2x wall, 1x grenade and 1x ammo slot
* Allow itemfilters to respec item conditions. So a requester chests, that requests walls, only take walls with 100% condition.
* Repair damaged items to 100% if inserted to a processing machine (exploitable?)

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ssilk
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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by ssilk »

I had problems to understand this. :) AFAIK there is no issue. When you assemble items with health lower than 100% the resulting item is just 100% again. I assume, that you want to change this.
Tami wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:16 pm
somehow items with lower than 100% condition totaly shutdowns your factory. The issue is, you can't track these items, nor they can be filtered.

... if you have 1000 walls on the belt, there is a change that any wall is lower than 100% condition and if you try to craft something, like military science, you can't mix these walls.
In other words (using Factorio terms): your suggestion is, that you cannot assemble military science from walls, that are not 100% health, as it is now?
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ickputzdirwech
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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by ickputzdirwech »

ssilk wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:35 am
AFAIK there is no issue.
There is. Assemblers can't craft recipes that require more than one entity-item of a kind per cycle, if some but not all of the items provided are damaged and therefore don't stack with the full health items.
Tami wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:16 pm
Change receipes, that allow different conditions of items, to only allow 1 of this kind. For example military science would take 1 wall instead of 2 walls.
A big no imo!
Tami wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:16 pm
Add more slots for processing machines in the case that may process damaged items. So a assembler, that produces military science would have 2x wall, 1x grenade and 1x ammo slot
This can become very chaotic very quickly if recipes require lots of different items.
Tami wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:16 pm
Allow itemfilters to respec item conditions. So a requester chests, that requests walls, only take walls with 100% condition.
Would this mean you can only request items with full health? Or that there are two filters for all entity-items? Either way not very practically I think.
Tami wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:16 pm
Repair damaged items to 100% if inserted to a processing machine (exploitable?)
Repairing items when moved by an inserter would be exploitable. If you mean that items should be repaired when inserted in an assembling machine, than this would only really solve one side of the issue (but probably most cases).There would still be the issue, when the full health items are inserted first, since you than can't insert the damaged items and they therefore won't be repaired either.
Tami wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:16 pm
Allow damaged items to be mixed with undamaged items inside a processing machine. So an assembler, that has a 50% condition wall and a 100% condition wall would have 75% condition, round up, so 100% and 99% = 100%
This is the option I would go for, as long as the items mix only inside a processing machine.
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Tami
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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by Tami »

Actually, a 50% wall and a 100% wall are 2 different kind of items, for this reason, item filters should respec this, adding a checkbox with a single choice:

( ) Damaged
(x) Undamaged
( ) All

Inserter for example handle 50% wall and 100% as one type of item while processing machines say, that are 2 different types of item, so they dont stack inside the assembler.

Loewchen for example says: Don't mix these items and every is fine.
The truth is, the player does not intend to mix these items, the game mix these item while the player has no care about the factory is trying to mix these items.

For example if you use upgrade planer to upgrade some structrures, you need items from logistic network and the exchanged items go back into the logistic network. There is so much potential to have damaged items in your logistic network. Also you can't repair items in the player inventory, you have to place them first, so if you have 500 damaged walls in your inventory, you have to place these walls first, repair them, and deconstruct them again.

I think the easiest way to fix this, is to handle damaged and undamaged items as one item inside processing machines.

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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by ssilk »

Hm, that is a nice found. :) I didn’t know that, never was in that situation, because I try to avoid wasting more than 1 slot for an item-type. :D

That is such an edge case! Only beginners, only if you don’t have robots, only if you don’t repair, only if you pick it up, only if you put it on a belt/chest...
.vs.
This can be quite hard to be fixed.

It would be much more easy that an broken item put in assembly is magically auto-repaired.
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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by foamy »

It's especially screwy because while a machine won't accept a damaged item, an inserter will happily try to add one to it -- a behaviour that jams the inserters in a fashion that can't occur in any other setup. I've had it hit with both belts and walls and it's a real pain to actually track the cause-of. In every other case if a recipe doesn't call for a material an inserter won't even try to add it in the first place -- why not here, too?

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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by ssilk »

I think either it’s one of those hidden features which makes the game so interesting or it has never been thought of before. :roll: 8-)
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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by Tami »

The code stacking of different kind of items is presence already. You can stack different size of ammo clips, you can stack different size of science post, you can even stack different condition of item, for example 99% wall and 50% wall. So if you add a condition in the code, that 100% wall can be stacked with 50% wall inside an assembler, would be the easiest fix.

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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by yagaodirac »

I think if this issue would be handled in the future, the solution should be that, all the items which could have condition are not possible to be any ingredients.

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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by ssilk »

That would block also... which can be seen as a bug. And it needs the inserters to check every time, if the item is full health, which takes for some thousands inserters some extra CPU.
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Re: Changing behavior of logistic network with items lower than 100% condition

Post by mrvn »

I think the most sensible would be to turn the item stacks inside an assembler/furnace into a float and have a 50% health wall simply count as 0.5 walls. So whenever an inserter tries to insert items it adds the health * count to the item stack. Removing the stack from an assembler would give you whole items and possibly one damaged one.

Unlike with the player inventory I don't have the expectation that if I put 5 damaged centrifuges into an assembler then I can still place the 5 furnaces back on the ground and repair them. The assembler uses up the input as it produces stuff so I think it's OK that you loose items when the health gets added up.

In a way that could be misused to repair items. But it will cost you health of the last item or even the whole items. That's often more expensive than repair packs. So not really an exploit or only on entities with trivial cost.

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