0.18 Power Graph display misleading due to inclusion of accumulators

[phree143]

Hi,

TLDR: The power graph (opened when clicking on a power pole) now shows the maximum power output which can be produced, including all accumulators. This is misleading, and a somewhat unhelpful visualisation.
Optimization recommendation: Show the power that can be permanently produced (over one day and night cycle), and for the accumulators, show an info whether they will manage to hold the needed power level through one night if the power consumption stays constant in the selected time-window (1m, 5m etc.)


Long Version: First of all, I love this game including the whole transparent development philosophy! Also, all the major updates leading up to 0.18 have been wonderful! I also really like the UX-approaches that have been implemented so far - they really improve gameplay and are actual benefits while playing!
The only exception I have to make refers to the new power graph display. Since 0.18, the maximum power that is shown via the graph takes all power sources into account, including accumulators. This seems to be misleading for me, at least concerning my (UX-based) use case, thus being to answer the question: "Do I currently have enough power to constantly supply all my buildings?" Adding accumulators into this seems wrong. The use case of accumulators (in my head at least) is to bridge the power production of solar panels through the night. Therefore, adding them to the daytime production doesn't provide me with any useful information concerning my above mentionend use case question.

My Idea: I would show a (maybe additional, better exclusively) graph displaying the maximum power that can be constantly produced, considering both day and night cycle. Additionally, I woul add a small indicator that shows whether my current accumulator load will get me through the next night, all power consumption stayig equal. These two pieces of information would strongly work towards answering my use case question quickly, which is what I understand good UX is ll about =)

Just a thought - once more thank you guys for sharing the game a ssuch and giving so many insight into your process - I am loving it!

Cheers,
Freddy

[valneq]

I fully agree that accumulators are mingled into the power statistics in a very unintuitive way. It is easiest to see with the production bar, at the moment of switching from using power from accumulators to recharging accumulators. And I am pretty sure this has been the case for a long while now, not only since 0.18.

In that sense: +1 to the suggestion.

I am not sure about the implementation though. Just ignoring accumulators from the production bar feels wrong. In the end, satisfaction and production should match – especially in the instances when accumulators provide some power. After all, accumulators have a maximum power output and the base could be consuming more power than accumulators are able to provide. And I mean the instantaneous Watts, not the total charge that tells me if my accumulators will be able to last through the night.

Talking about nights: In Factorio there is a dusk and a dawn period that is not instantaneous where solar panels gradually decrease or increase in power production, respectively. Since these periods last quite a while, a lot can happen in the mean time. I don't think the production statistics should extrapolate into the future to tell me if my power setup will survive the night.

In that sense: -1 to the suggestion.

[phree143]

Hi,

thanks for the input - you got me at +1
I just wanted to set an impuls and see where this goes - now I am commited.

I agree that my suggestion falls short of a real solution - maybe this will help get a step closer to this. Also, I noticed that I missed out on one big important use of accumulators: Backing up power for defenses.
I also agree that accumulators should be shown as providing power when they do. But I disagree that this should be added to the max output in the "production" section. To place an analogy: To me, an accumulator does not "produce" power just like a a chest stacked with iron plates doesn't "produce" iron plates. They are stored instances of a production which has laready taken place. Sure, the stored power (as the iron plates) can be used to provide consumption - but it is limited, and wothout a "real" production base, will soon fail.

Attached is a screenshot of a really rough interface suggestion, including three changes:

network info draft suggestion.jpg (1.77 MiB) Viewed 2085 times

1. Production shows only the current production, not the max production - thereby removing a lot of the misleading information of a much too high potential power production. If accumulatros "produce" (better give ) power, they will be listed. If they currently don't, they don't.

2. Lowest accumulator value in selected time frame (in %): Allow me to see whether it is likely that my current set up is feasable for the next few base building steps, or if I'm close to blackout.

3. Maximum power output of accumulators (in MW): Because @valneq I agree! The max output of accumulatros is basically completely intransparent at the moment. This would solve this.


Then, I would be closer to getting answers to my use case question at a glance, such as:

- will my power setup get me through the next night, all things being equal?
- can I build up my base, or do I need to take care of power first?


Maybe that's a first step towards more clarity here?

Cheers
Freddy

[netmand]

2. Lowest accumulator value in selected time frame (in %): Allow me to see whether it is likely that my current set up is feasable for the next few base building steps, or if I'm close to blackout.

This would be an interesting challenge to tackle for a mod.

Personally, rather than seeing those values on that screen I'd rather like to see the electric system values exposed to the circuit network so I can work with them as a part of the factory. Right now all we have is tapping the accumulators for the percentage charged.

[ssilk]

They always forget the mods.

Factorio distinct between production and consumption. An accumulator is in truth both (producer and consumer) and implemented so. But there could be other power utilities that work as producer/consumer. For example converting power into heat, fill tanks of hot water with it and used over normal steam engines. it’s some kind of accumulator.

[Btw: In many maps I use also arrays of steam-tanks as power storage and have a huge over-capacity of steam engines... then I need to connect a siren to one tank and a switch to turn steam engines on if accumulator empties and voilá I have a very basic measure if the capacity will last during night.]

Mods can change the power priority: accumulator has the lowest priority, but you can change it to highest an together with switches that might be very useful.

Or see this mod: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RealisticPower
Different charge rates for accumulator...

Your suggestion takes not everything into account and that there are really simple workarounds to achieve your need.

And now?

There are mods that can measure current power usage and accumulator load and it should be some simple calculation with combinators to produce an alarm-signal for a siren.

I found this mod that seems to do that already: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/PowerPlusPowerMeter
[ btw That description contains also a lot of insider knowledge I never heard.]
Maybe you can try that?

[phree143]

Hi there,


thanks for the reply!
But I must clarify once more @ssilk: An accumulator is not a "producer" of power im my understanding. Otherwise, a steam tank or a chest flled with iron plates would also have to be a "producer" of steam/iron plates, respectively. I think this comparison clarifies why this concept is misleading

Forthermore, I guess my point is not that this issue is non-fixable. In fact, I have already found workarounds for myself, this being to monitor the development of my power production over one cycle - if the time it takes to fill all accumulators is about 25% of the daytime, I know it will be okay.

That's not the issue at hand though, to be frank. The issue is that in my opinion, the network info screen in its current state is actually misleading and not truly helpful in an UX-perspective to the needs of the player. That's why I don't think a mod solution is appropriate. It's not about "tweaking" the game in an optional manner as I seem fit (something that the mods are for, which I love btw) - this is about optimizing the core interface of the game in a way that makes the game better. For everyone.

In that sense, thanks again for the discussion - maybe this issue can be picked up down the line by the fafctorio devs. Maybe not

Cheers,
Freddy

[ssilk]

Well, the power graph is one of the most misleading concepts in Factorio. I think the suggestions about it goes into hundreds, which is a clear sign. Here is a list, which is only the top of the iceberg: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=25233

And I didn’t want to kill discussion about it, all I want was to show that a fix seems not to be easy. I’m sure that is also the reason, why the devs said in the FFF https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-337 that they won’t change this till 1.0 release.

I’m glad that you found a workaround yourself, because currently all remains for the community is to find good workarounds and discuss, how the perfect power statistics should work. because it seems to be possible that after 1.0 Factorio is still developed.