Post-game wishlist

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eterevsky
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Post-game wishlist

Post by eterevsky »

I've just finished the longest vanilla run that I've ever done. I've built a 300 SPM factory, launched >150 rockets and finally got Mass production 3. What a journey it was!

Along the way I bumped into a few annoyances and things that could be improved. Some of them are probably known. If so, I'm sorry for reiterating.

I'll split the post into three sections: iron/copper balance, supplying the outposts and everything else.
Iron/copper balance
By far the most annoying part of this playthrough was looking for copper. At some point in the game I almost completed the core factory, and had to spend literally hours looking for copper deposits. It seems that the game is balanced around having more iron ore than copper ore. In my latest save the game knows about 330M iron ore and 121M copper ore. I've calculated the numbers as follows:

Code: Select all

local x = 0
for _, e in ipairs(game.player.surface.find_entities_filtered{name="iron-ore"}) do
  x = x + e.amount
end
game.print(x)
Plus I've mined 34M iron and 37M copper. It looks like the resources are generated at the rate of 2:1 iron:copper.

But the end-game factory requires more copper than iron. Here's an approximate calculator for my factory: http://tiny.cc/j2csjz. It requires 6 copper for each 5 iron. Even after removing module production, which is copper-hungry, the ratio is still approximately 1:1.

I understand that in the beginning of the game, when the player builds a lot of transporters and pipes, iron is more useful. But starting in the middle game, copper begins to be just as useful. In my mind a good solution would be to bias the resources in the starting area towards iron, but keep the 1:1 ratio for the rest of the map.
Supplying the outposts
In this game I experimented with supplying the outposts with dedicated trains instead of building a huge logistic network. This generally worked great, but with a few caveats.

I supplied defence outposts with 6 types of items (turret, wall, substation, repair pack, artillery missiles and construction bots). Some other items could also be useful. I packed all the stuff in the same carriage, using slot filters.

I ran into following issues:
  • I tried to load the train from a single requestor chest that was supplied by logistic bots. Unfortunately if the inserter from the chest to the carriage can move more than one item at a time, it gets stuck when it tries to insert say 3 items while the carriage has only one slot for a given item type. Unlike all other complaints in this post, this looks like a genuine bug.
  • I would expect to be able to use a single destination chest as well, but this is simply not possible, since chests don't have slot filters. It seems that at least smart chests should have this feature.
  • It would be nice to have a train condition "wait until at least one of the item types has run out". Currently the only way to do it is to manually create N conditions that each of the items has count 0.
  • ... which brings me to the next point. Once you create the condition for a single train, there is no easy way to copy it to another, that goes to another stations. In particular, there is no way to keep the condition, but change the station.
Other
  • When I build on top of cliffs, the cliffs are automatically removed. Why when I build upon water, it is not automatically covered with landfill? There is even no way to see where exactly you need the landfill, since there is no way to put a ghost on the water.
  • The ammo counts should work the same way as the counters in the panels, i.e. show the total number of the remaining ammo.
  • It would be nice to have a way to insert a given set of modules into a machine. For example, I used 3 green + 1 blue in most assemblers. The only way to automate insertion is to delete assemblers and then copy-paste the new ones.
  • Speaking of copy-pasting. It works perfectly. Traditional blueprints though... I accidentally found a way to build from a blueprint book without extracting the blueprint from it. You need to right-click on the book, then use shift-mouse wheel to choose the right blueprint, then select the book, and build using it. This is super unintuitive. Why can't I just change the blueprint with shift-mouse wheel without opening the book?
  • It would be more logical if blueprints didn't live in the inventory, but in their own repository, and could be moved to the shortcut panel from there.
  • When exploring deeper and deeper into the world, you have to fight on every step. It would be nice to find from time to time a peaceful place without biters, same as in the beginning of the game.
And that's all. Thanks to the developers for the amazing game!

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ssilk
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Re: Post-game wishlist

Post by ssilk »

Iron/Copper Balance:
It's in real world the same. Much more Iron than Copper. :) I don't see that as a problem, just need either to create the world a bit different or earch longer (as you said).

Supply Outposts:
Well, the problem with the inserters is known and there can be nothing be done about it but either using one chest per item or setting inserter stack size to 1 and use it as filter.
You may have also a look into some subboards viewforum.php?f=194 or viewforum.php?f=214

Most of your remaining issues I can really underline.
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Re: Post-game wishlist

Post by eradicator »

eterevsky wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:04 pm
It seems that the game is balanced around having more iron ore than copper ore.
Correct. See also FFF 217.
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Re: Post-game wishlist

Post by movax20h »

eterevsky wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:04 pm
Supplying the outposts

I supplied defence outposts with 6 types of items (turret, wall, substation, repair pack, artillery missiles and construction bots). Some other items could also be useful. I packed all the stuff in the same carriage, using slot filters.

I ran into following issues:
  • I tried to load the train from a single requestor chest that was supplied by logistic bots. Unfortunately if the inserter from the chest to the carriage can move more than one item at a time, it gets stuck when it tries to insert say 3 items while the carriage has only one slot for a given item type. Unlike all other complaints in this post, this looks like a genuine bug.
I did run into the same issue. I would have my outposting train (two wagons, with various items, like poles, tracks, locomotives, belts, splitters, etc). One of the wagons will carry easily 10 different types of items. And all slots in the wagon will be locked to only carry specific item. The inserters will take stuff from requester chests, but sometimes will get stuck, with few items still in hand, but other items from the requester to wagon still not filled in, yet being in requester chest.

It looks like overriding the stack size to 1 is probably the only solution to this problem. Other is to use 12 requester chests, but that will still limit you to 12 different items. If you want 13 or more you will have the same issue again.

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Re: Post-game wishlist

Post by mmmPI »

eterevsky wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:04 pm
Supplying the outposts
In this game I experimented with supplying the outposts with dedicated trains instead of building a huge logistic network. This generally worked great, but with a few caveats.

I supplied defence outposts with 6 types of items (turret, wall, substation, repair pack, artillery missiles and construction bots). Some other items could also be useful. I packed all the stuff in the same carriage, using slot filters.

I ran into following issues:
  • I tried to load the train from a single requestor chest that was supplied by logistic bots. Unfortunately if the inserter from the chest to the carriage can move more than one item at a time, it gets stuck when it tries to insert say 3 items while the carriage has only one slot for a given item type. Unlike all other complaints in this post, this looks like a genuine bug.
  • I would expect to be able to use a single destination chest as well, but this is simply not possible, since chests don't have slot filters. It seems that at least smart chests should have this feature.
Maybe a setup based on this logic could meet your desire. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=74260

The thing that look like a genuine bug, i think i have an explanation, the inserter doesn't "look" if there will be room to put "all" that was grabbed when grabbing stuff, only when depositing them. The problem occur when depositing is not possible. Which prevent the inserter from grabbing anything else before he got rid of the excess taken.

One way i found to avoid the problem is to allow inserter to grab only the required quantity ( using stack size 1 or using condition like when ammo < 195, combined with stack size 5). Instead of a little too many iron that clog the thing you'd have a little bit missing or just the exact amount.

Doing this method doesn't require you to use filter on wagons, but you can still do it.

To avoid using combinators you can limit inserter stacksize to 1 and use the same filter as before, slowing down a lot the station but making it more reliable with little modification as mentionned earlier :)


eterevsky wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:04 pm
[*] It would be nice to have a train condition "wait until at least one of the item types has run out". Currently the only way to do it is to manually create N conditions that each of the items has count 0.

[*] ... which brings me to the next point. Once you create the condition for a single train, there is no easy way to copy it to another, that goes to another stations. In particular, there is no way to keep the condition, but change the station.
For those points, i am not sure i understand correctly the use case you are refering to. I think i use decider combinators to monitor similar thing. For a train that would supply defenses in outpost for example, i would setup something like [IF ammo<1 send 1 red signal] or [If turret=0 send 1 red signal] and you "read train content" and "send to train". at the train stop. Then the train would have as a condition for the unload to wait for red signals.

for the second point I use shift right click , shift left click to copy paste the schedule, do you mean that this is not enough ? or is it useless in the case of different station name , the game "forgetting" the conditions and forcing you to set them up again, while you'd wish to just keep the condition and just change the station name ?

Considering the previous point i understand this can be problematic if you have a station named "defense west", with a train that has 20 conditions for ammo, turret, repair pack, poles and so on scheduled to all of the train stop called "defense west", and now you want to create a station called "defense east", and you can't just copy paste the schedule, and then switch only the station at the top, you'd have to redo all the 20 conditions and setup respective numbers again ? is this what you are describing ?

In this case the game could probably be better if it keeps all the conditions under the station name when you switch to another station name in the schedule i agree.

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Re: Post-game wishlist

Post by ssilk »

movax20h wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:39 pm
Other is to use 12 requester chests, but that will still limit you to 12 different items. If you want 13 or more you will have the same issue again.
You can use up to 24 chests per wagon (long inserters in two rows). If you make a clever setup you can use - with limiting inserter stack size - one chest for two or more - seldom used!! - items.

I have a supply train with 33 different items per wagon, much more is not useful in my opinion and you need a second wagon.
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Re: Post-game wishlist

Post by Xeorm »

Iron/copper balance I believe is driven a lot by modules. Late game you can use productivity modules to drastically reduce the amount of copper you need, keeping the ratio pretty good. Using efficiency modules is just...strange. Especially tier 3 efficiency modules.

Going over the other comments:
- Yea, this part is weird, but was intentional. They deliberately wanted water to feel like it was there, and landfill was only reluctantly added in the first place. Cliffs they had much less of a problem with.
- By ammo counts I assume you mean talking about how many shots you have versus magazines? It'd be more useful for knowing how many shots you had, but confusing when worrying about items. Easier for me to worry about items, and only approximately worry about how many shots I have, so I rather like the current situation.
- Yes, I'd like this too for using mixed numbers, but I also remember not needing it much. The current keybinds work well for dumping all of one type in a building, and that's predominantly the usage I needed.
- Err, you can? Select the book so it's on your cursor, then you can use shift+mousewheel to swap between which blueprint is selected.
- They do, kind of. There's the blueprint library you can access. (Default key is B, or up by the minimap). They experimented with how to handle blueprints in the past, and this was the best result they came up with.
- How many biters are around depends on map gen settings and the like. Any area that's been generated will slowly fill with biters as they expand. You can still find areas as you go further out that have less biters. There's also always mods for this kind of thing. I really do enjoy RSO for what it does for map generation. I also found that if you have speed, either with powered armor or a vehicle, you really didn't have to do much fighting. As long as you outrun the biters it doesn't really matter.

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