i thought it would be nice to have.
It is interesting to lay down tracks and signals to make the train to go where we want, but when i saw a no path issue, i had to walk the whole train path checking signals to see where i failed to place/ misplaced the signal. this troubleshooting took more time than shooting the aliens (not fun).
I would be nice, when in select a destination station, the game highlights where the signal problem is
(or)
show the path that the train can reach unitil where the path leads to the problem spot (instead of saying just no path).
there are only 2 possibilities for no path (from factorio wiki ) - that are if there is no track or wrong signal placement
when you place tracks and proper signals, the game take the path itself .. i though it would be nice if there is no path, the game could highlight the incomplete path, so it go where the problem is and complete it ..
Re: highlight where the signal problem is
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:39 pm
by leadraven
So true...
BUT! If algorithm fails to find a path, game couldn't know what path did you mention. What it must show if a train and a station are in completely different networks? I don't think this problem has any solution. Game already shows you everything it can : train and station.
Re: highlight where the signal problem is
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:21 pm
by planetmaker
It would also be nice, if I could just press the "play me" button and the game played itself and I just collect the achievements
In all honesty: there's all the info you need: no path between the two stations, and there can only be guessing as what you meant to build instead of what you actually built. Did you forget to add a by-pass somewhere? Did you miss to connect tracks somewhere? Is it just that a section was wrongly-signaled? Does it miss a turn-around or does your train miss its expected two-headed setup? So many options. And all may be simultaneously true. Or wrong. What should it show as being "the cause"? Which section should it highlight with signals as being wrong when afterwards the return way cannot be found? etc pp.
If you build a network in an orderly fashion (whatever that is actually), debugging it usually is quick. and you can test the path piecewise by becoming passenger of the train and trying to set a temporary station to where you want to go, and then trying further back. That way you will find where path finding goes wrong. It even shows you in that process where the train goes from the current position to where you click
It would also be nice, if I could just press the "play me" button and the game played itself and I just collect the achievements
In all honesty: there's all the info you need: no path between the two stations, and there can only be guessing as what you meant to build instead of what you actually built. Did you forget to add a by-pass somewhere? Did you miss to connect tracks somewhere? Is it just that a section was wrongly-signaled? Does it miss a turn-around or does your train miss its expected two-headed setup? So many options. And all may be simultaneously true. Or wrong. What should it show as being "the cause"? Which section should it highlight with signals as being wrong when afterwards the return way cannot be found? etc pp.
If you build a network in an orderly fashion (whatever that is actually), debugging it usually is quick. and you can test the path piecewise by becoming passenger of the train and trying to set a temporary station to where you want to go, and then trying further back. That way you will find where path finding goes wrong. It even shows you in that process where the train goes from the current position to where you click
thanks for your honesty .. looks like you like being organised . well ... and i am not good at it.. my track is chaotic ..
and i do not want a "play me" button, no thank you
as you have mentioned , there are so many places where things could go wrong , but there are only 2 possibilities for no path (even factio wiki says that) - that are if there is no track or wrong signal placement
when you place tracks and proper signals, the game take the path itself .. i though it would be nice if there is no path, the game could highlight the incomplete path, so people like me go to that place where the problem is and complete it ..
its just highlighting ... not a "play me" button ..
i believe this solution is feasible
So true...
BUT! If algorithm fails to find a path, game couldn't know what path did you mention. What it must show if a train and a station are in completely different networks? I don't think this problem has any solution. Game already shows you everything it can : train and station.
it can highlight the incomplete train path.. if it does , we know where the problem is
So true...
BUT! If algorithm fails to find a path, game couldn't know what path did you mention. What it must show if a train and a station are in completely different networks? I don't think this problem has any solution. Game already shows you everything it can : train and station.
it can highlight the incomplete train path.. if it does , we know where the problem is
And what is "incomplete path" if there is no path? Game can't read your mind.
So true...
BUT! If algorithm fails to find a path, game couldn't know what path did you mention. What it must show if a train and a station are in completely different networks? I don't think this problem has any solution. Game already shows you everything it can : train and station.
it can highlight the incomplete train path.. if it does , we know where the problem is
And what is "incomplete path" if there is no path? Game can't read your mind.
highlight weather there is no track or no proper signal ,
you see, when you manually select to reach a station it draws a line along the track when train travels. now , if there is no proper signal (my case) , draw the line until where the track is clear, so clearly at the end of the line there is ambiguity of signal which prevents the train from reaching the station. we can go and fix there ..
am i clear now ..
Re: highlight where the signal problem is
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:17 pm
by planetmaker
Oh, let's play a game. I create a track setup, and you tell where the problem is and what should be highlighted.
Setup 1:
Bildschirmfoto von 2020-01-27 18-16-10.png (306.72 KiB) Viewed 4166 times
Train has orders A->B->C. It currently sits at A with 'no path'.
EDIT to add for people who don't want to download the map: the track has no signals at all. And all track pieces are connected.
You just don't realize that the problem is unsolvable. Not even just "difficult". You're asking for *one* solution to a problem that has infinite solutions. Solve this equation: "x * 0 = 0", what is the only possible value for x?
but there are only 2 possibilities for no path (even factio wiki says that) - that are if there is no track or wrong signal placement
That is two *types* of problems. Multiplied by every single piece of track.
It's all mind-reading. Advanced users (like me) sometimes build "wrong" signals on purpose to block tracks and because that has some uses in circuit networks, in which case the real problem would be something completely different. And i am the only one who would know what i intended to build before i made a mistake.
The only thing remotely close enough to a "one solution" would be to show a path to the rail that is closest to the target station, but even that is impossible when there are several reachable rails that have exactly the same distance. And on top of that as far as i know the rail pathfinder is not aware of the "physical" game world, so it doesn't know anything about tile distances in the first place.
You just don't realize that the problem is unsolvable. Not even just "difficult". You're asking for *one* solution to a problem that has infinite solutions. Solve this equation: "x * 0 = 0", what is the only possible value for x?
but there are only 2 possibilities for no path (even factio wiki says that) - that are if there is no track or wrong signal placement
That is two *types* of problems. Multiplied by every single piece of track.
It's all mind-reading. Advanced users (like me) sometimes build "wrong" signals on purpose to block tracks and because that has some uses in circuit networks, in which case the real problem would be something completely different. And i am the only one who would know what i intended to build before i made a mistake.
The only thing remotely close enough to a "one solution" would be to show a path to the rail that is closest to the target station, but even that is impossible when there are several reachable rails that have exactly the same distance. And on top of that as far as i know the rail pathfinder is not aware of the "physical" game world, so it doesn't know anything about tile distances in the first place.
Oh, let's play a game. I create a track setup, and you tell where the problem is and what should be highlighted.
Setup 1: Bildschirmfoto von 2020-01-27 18-16-10.png
Train has orders A->B->C. It currently sits at A with 'no path'.
EDIT to add for people who don't want to download the map: the track has no signals at all. And all track pieces are connected.
Factorio 0.18.1 28-01-2020 00_13_46.png (2.78 MiB) Viewed 4132 times
i have replicated my problem ,From A the train has to reach B . here i have not placed a signal which because of which it shows no path. in that junction i have not placed a signal by mistake. then i had to search every junction where i have not placed a signal.
if it were to show (highlight) the tracks that are connected to B, and highlight where the red signal is... well .. is it too much to ask .. may be ..
i don't know ...
thanks for putting in time and effort to hear me out .. I appreciate it a lot.
so , from save file i see , you are one of those monstrous players .. man i have just begun ..
Re: highlight where the signal problem is
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:30 pm
by Olacken
The main problem is that the current train system isn't designed for that you would need to redo an other structure to be able to ignore train signal to be able to determine that should there be no error you could path toward the stop and highlight where the wrong signal is.
Not to mention that there is a reason why you put signal on rail a code that would ignore signal would ignore all of them resulting in a lot of possible path that arn't meant to exist. It could maybe be solved by ignoring the first or second signal but it still don't solve the case of missing rail or station being on the wrong side of the track.
And in any case it's a lot of work for somthing that could maybe help find one or two case frome time to time but in most case being useless because it show route that are by design meant to be the way they are and the fact that it just can't detect missing rail.
TL;DR: Too much work for the rare case it could be usefull and usable.(Not a dev just educated guesses)
The main problem is that the current train system isn't designed for that you would need to redo an other structure to be able to ignore train signal to be able to determine that should there be no error you could path toward the stop and highlight where the wrong signal is.
Not to mention that there is a reason why you put signal on rail a code that would ignore signal would ignore all of them resulting in a lot of possible path that arn't meant to exist. It could maybe be solved by ignoring the first or second signal but it still don't solve the case of missing rail or station being on the wrong side of the track.
And in any case it's a lot of work for somthing that could maybe help find one or two case frome time to time but in most case being useless because it show route that are by design meant to be the way they are and the fact that it just can't detect missing rail.
TL;DR: Too much work for the rare case it could be usefull and usable.(Not a dev just educated guesses)
EDIT: That's even better (because shorter):
trainfun-solution2.png
Pretty similar to that I had something like this in mind:
Bildschirmfoto von 2020-01-27 21-09-46.png
But that would change the schedule to …A--B--C--B--A…. For …A--B--C--A--B--C …, this would be better:
trainfun-solution3.png (3.96 MiB) Viewed 4097 times
Re: highlight where the signal problem is
Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:23 am
by BlueTemplar
Please use colored train stops so that the discussion is easier to follow ? Thanks !
Re: highlight where the signal problem is
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:03 pm
by planetmaker
A game over after one round is boring. So another round and example. Consider the setup as follows:
Train waiting at Yellow has orders Yellow -> Blue and cannot find a way. Where's the problem? There are signals after Yellow and after Red and between Blue and Yellow - mind their orientations. Upon popular request I now used coloured stations and signal debugging mode - I never did so before tbh, but it's both a good idea
Bildschirmfoto von 2020-01-30 20-57-27.png (5.42 MiB) Viewed 4011 times
Bildschirmfoto von 2020-01-30 22-02-23.png (177.41 KiB) Viewed 4004 times
man i have just begun ..
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