Factorio Forums

TL;DR

Change trains / rail research so players aren't encouraged to rush most of it at once.

What ?

Rail, Automated Rail, and Rail Signals research should have their costs re-worked, to incentivize players using each tier of research without always rushing. (Signals could probably stay separate, to avoid confusing players, but that could probably be solved with more mini- / popup-tutorials.)

There could also be more types of research similar to Fluid Wagon, which allow different types of railway. As possible examples, there could be:

1. Crude Locomotive. Slow, inefficient, weak, but early research, and cheaper to build. (See this mod.)
2. Diesel Locomotive. Can burn crude oil (inefficient), light oil, heavy oil, and petroleum gas. (See this mod.)
3. High-speed Locomotive. Can burn "solid fuel", rocket fuel, and nuclear fuel. (Would require limiting the "normal" locomotive to only burn wood, coal, or maybe "solid fuel".)
4. Electric Locomotive, powered by overhead lines, or an accumulator wagon. (See this mod, this mod, and this mod.)
5. High-speed + electric research unlocks high-speed electric locomotives.
6. Etc!

Why ?

The current rail research seems like it doesn't fit with the rest of the game. Everything except the guns, car, and tank, is about automation. The most basic transport belts and inserters let you set up an automated (if slow) system. Trains on the other hand, require you to drive manually for the first research topic, and only allow automation after the second one. Complex automation requires the third research topic (signals), rather than simply being limited by the player's ingenuity and logic. That last part is the key, in my opinion; The other researches generally allow complex or space-efficient automation when the player figures out the puzzle, and the different research generally gives flat speed boosts or flat efficiency boosts.

Railway research costs (1 red, 1 green, 30 seconds) * 75. Automated Rail Transportation is the exact same cost; Neither slower, nor more resources. Rail Signals is slightly more expensive at * 100 instead of * 75, but that's only 33% more expensive. Hardly a disincentive to simply researching all three of those at once. Contrast that with Fluid Wagon research, which is 266% times the cost of Railway research, which is at least a sizable increase. Braking Force research, starts more expensive and only goes up - 133% of the red and green, plus blue bottles - later ones add other colors!

Together, this means that players are encouraged to research all of the rail technologies before laying down any track at all. They certainly can start using trains with the first research, but it's a big hassle - you need to have entirely separate and non-overlapping tracks, in order to have your trains work. Additionally, if you wanted to drive something manually, you've already got the car and the tank - neither of which limit you to tracks! Manually-driven trains overlap with cars' and tanks' use-case, and do it poorly!

Currently railroad techs have no intermediate dependencies and can be researched in a row. Why not to unite them into one? The problem of their separation is that the railway without signals is hardly suitable for use. It is all or nothing.

Railroad must have more internal progression or be merged into single research.

leadraven wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:54 pm Why not to unite them into one? The problem of their separation is that the railway without signals is hardly suitable for use. It is all or nothing.

Railroad must have more internal progression or be merged into single research.

Signals are only required if you have several trains on one track. However, right at the start of the game, most players will only have one train per track. Therefore, in my opinion, it does make sense to have track signals as a research upgrade.

Also, train stations are only required for automation of trains. At the start of the game, the player could drive trains manually, without researching train stations. So it does make sense for train stations to be a research upgrade. However, I do agree that most players will not use this possibility and will instead want to use automatic trains right from the start (and do all necessary research before laying any track).

From that point of view, I agree that it may be better to either merge all railway researches or make the later researches more expensive.

Tekky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:26 pm Signals are only required if you have several trains on one track.

You also need them for intersections between tracks.

Tekky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:26 pm agree that most players will not use this possibility and will instead want to use automatic trains right from the start

Yup. The car is better for manual driving, since it gives you freedom, is cheaper, and you don't need to lay down track in front of yourself.

I just went to review the rail-specific technologies. I can see a reason for rail signals to be separate, but I have to agree that I don't see any reason to make use of trains in a non-automated fashion and having separate "Railway" and "Automated rail transportation" doesn't much a whole lot of sense.

Don't discount the Stop-less trains - in some situations they're great in combat - cars are much more fragile, and easily stuck on trees/rocks !

(The most basic transport belts and inserters require a coal lane to be refueled.)

You have to consider first-time players.
Trains are fairly complex, it's better to introduce them gradually.
(In fact, considering the much higher cost of later train techs, this seems to be exactly what the devs had in mind ! And experienced players can now use the research queue in 0.17...)

In fact, I'd suggest to further split the research between normal rail signals and chain signals, and tie the "Advanced Rail Signals" tutorial to that last one, instead of Chemical Science Pack research !
(Which makes no sense, you might need chain signals way before you get Blue Science, in fact this happened to me, I had to search the Web for a tutorial because I thought that Factorio didn't have one !!)

Incidentally, my tenth (10!) Factorio game, in 0.17, was the first time that I actually needed to learn to use train signals ! (and 7, 8 and 9 were Rampant DeathWorld AngelBob, up to Blue Science Sea Block, and DeathWorld Pyanodon !)

BTW, one of the biggest issues for new players seems to be how fluid wagons won't connect unless you have a train stop (or manage to stop the train in a pixel-perfect way).
(I know this because I had this issue too, and that was the first time that I was forced to search the Web for a solution.)
There should be a "Fluid Wagons" tutorial
and/or Fluid Wagon should have Automated Rail Transportation as a pre-requisite
or pumps should be less picky !

I can agree with rail signals and chain rail signals being separate technologies. Even my first playthrough though, I'm pretty sure that I looked at trains and went "These are cool. But I'm not manually ferrying materials back and forth. I'll wait to try this until I've got the ability to automate it." I do seem to recall that I rode my train back and forth a few times anyways, because I like trains, but there's still very little use to trains without the ability to automate them.

I like the idea of including Train Stops with the first trains research, and separating rail and chain signals. If there is anything that should be tiered for the same of new player confusion, it is those two. It seems like most people either ignore chain signals at first, or use them interchangeably and get confused. Being stuck with only rail signals for a while would give them time to understand how signaling in general works, and come to a natural understanding of why chain signals exist.

With only rail signals, complex designs are still possible, but are more limited in topology. For example, you could have single-headed trains on a loop with passing tracks, or maybe double-headed trains with one loading station and two unloading stations (so that there is only one way in or out of each bidirectional block).

In the very least fluid wagon needs to be gated behind train stops - it doesn't appear to be possible to pump from/to wagon without a dedicated stop(station).

P.S.
Would be nice to have an 'engineering train' whose only purpose is to be a mobile roboport for construction drones, to go and repair/replace tracks and everything around tracks.
Logic of trains needs a bit of expansion: routes are too linear (but there is a 'logistic trains' mod as alternative)

as i have used single lines way back when playing the campaign, i can relate to having no signals first.

If there is anything changed, train stops could be researed together with rails
There is this temp. stop in 0.17 now, so you dont have to drive manually
But other than that, tracks and a loco is/was just a manually driven, rail bound, faster car.
If anyone ever loaded the wagons by hand at a far out resource post, because he had no train stop.... Well, kudos....


As the base game train system is enough automation to support mega bases, i dont see the point of new locos tho.
The ones you mentioned are all great mods, but they dont need to be integrated into the base game