[0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

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[0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by Serenity »

Power armor Mk2 and the portable fusion reactor require military science. Power armor Mk2 also requires Military 4

This conflicts with the stated design goals in FFF-275:
https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-275
Putting any arbitrary military upgrade there just makes that weapon type mandatory to upgrade even if you don’t want to use it. Not only that, but it was also the only reason why you would need to make Military science packs if your only intention is to launch the Rocket.

This makes it even more clear that the Military science pack is a separate branch of science. It depends on the progression of your factory, but its sole purpose is to deal with the distraction - the enemies - from your main goal.

Biters by themselves already give you a very good reason to invest into Military science regardless and it’s unnecessary to force the Military science pack on people who play without biters - just because of the few Rocket shooting speed (or any other) military technologies that you don’t even make use of. Or maybe you play with biters but are badass enough to just use more unupgraded Gun turrets and launch the Rocket without any Military science packs anyway, we’ll leave that decision to you.
That was about rocket tech and the rocket silo, but the same applies here. Many people use power armor with personal roboports as a construction suit. In fact it's a huge step towards automated construction and a milestone in factory progression. If biters and military science are supposed to be an optional choice then it shouldn't be required for important construction equipment.

Also, power armor Mk1 doesn't need military science and it makes sense for Mk2 to be the same. The fusion reactor is then needed to make the most of either one.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by nljr »

The utility abilities of power armor need to be separated from the military abilities. That could be done with a "power suit" item mark 1 and 2 as a cheaper alternative to power armor. It wouldn't have the defense of power armor and wouldn't accept laser defense or shield modules.

Since Power Suit would be based on utility science, it shouldn't be a prerequisite for power armor.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by avaspell »

nljr wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:25 pm
The utility abilities of power armor need to be separated from the military abilities. That could be done with a "power suit" item mark 1 and 2 as a cheaper alternative to power armor. It wouldn't have the defense of power armor and wouldn't accept laser defense or shield modules.

Since Power Suit would be based on utility science, it shouldn't be a prerequisite for power armor.
Wouldn't a power suit be a weird amalgam? I could take a Power suite MK2 and throw a ton of shields in it and it might as well be armor anyways. And "fixing" that seems way too complicated. The only other non-military use of the armor is movement ( you have concrete and vehicles for that ) and night vision, which you can counter if you're a non-military with lights. The only argument that I could see is for construction robotics, but I think there may be a simple answer to this: Have some sort of upgrade that allows your inventory to be connected to the logistic network for the purpose of construction. Something like trash or logistic slots but allows the construction robots from elsewhere to grab your items. Of course, this is just an optimization to just throwing stuff in a chest. I think the only _real_ advantage to this ( which should be considered! ) Is to allow construction robots to use your stuff without having researched logistic system and building some logistic bots ( otherwise you could build a storage chest and literally trash the stuff you want to use to build with).

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by Serenity »

I don't see how separating them is necessary. The power armor just gives you the equipment grid. All the military stuff you can put it in still requires military research

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by CDarklock »

Serenity wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:40 pm
Many people use power armor with personal roboports as a construction suit.
Isn't this what modular armour is for?

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by bobucles »

But you can carry around full sized roboports to build anywhere important. Power armor isn't needed for base building at any point in the game.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by nljr »

avaspell wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:38 pm
throw a ton of shields in it and it might as well be armor anyways.
Right. And that's why I said it would be incompatible with shields.
Serenity wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:44 pm
I don't see how separating them is necessary. The power armor just gives you the equipment grid. All the military stuff you can put it in still requires military research
This is a very good point. Except power armor gives you improved defenses over modular armor. I'm *just* looking for the bigger equipment grid, for its utility, not military value.
CDarklock wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:06 pm
Isn't this what modular armour is for?
You're extremely limited on how many roboports you can use with modular armor. By the time you get all the power you need for one roboport and maybe one exoskeleton, you're out of room.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by CDarklock »

nljr wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:40 pm
You're extremely limited on how many roboports you can use with modular armor.
You can use enough to extend your power grid and set up a full-size roboport, though.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by <NO_NAME> »

CDarklock wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:06 pm
Serenity wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:40 pm
Many people use power armor with personal roboports as a construction suit.
Isn't this what modular armour is for?
Not really.
You cannot put to it fusion reactor and roboport at the same time. Personal roboport is almost unusable without the reactor.
On the other hand, power armor MK1 is usually sufficient for construction.

Edit:
I forgot that the reactor also requires military science as OP said. And the yellow science too.
It's a very late-game thing for something that makes construction bots usable.
The fusion reactor would make sense as purely military thing if there was some other way to efficiently power personal roboports. E.g. some armor module which draws power from power lines.
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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by CDarklock »

<NO_NAME> wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 am
Personal roboport is almost unusable without the reactor.
All kinds of stuff is completely unusable without the right research. This is literally complaining that you don't want to do the research on what you want, but you still want it.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by leadraven »

I agree with OP. Military development of player's suit must be separated from construction one.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by Ambaire »

Agreed, I see no good reason for power armor mk2 and reactor to be locked behind military science. A fairly common mid/lategame loadout for me is 4 reactors, 2 exos, 4 mk2 roboports and 2 mk2 batteries.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by BlueTemplar »

<NO_NAME> wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 am
You cannot put to [Modular Armor] fusion reactor and roboport at the same time. Personal roboport is almost unusable without the reactor.
Have you tried the personal solar panels in 0.17 yet? I hear that their power output has been tripled ?

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by Serenity »

CDarklock wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:06 pm
Isn't this what modular armour is for?
The modular armor is tiny. 5x5. With the new 30kw solar panels you can put in an exoskeleton and night vision/batteries, but that's about it. Maybe Mk1 shields for combat. Roboports are just too hungry when recharging

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by melichor »

CDarklock wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:44 am
<NO_NAME> wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 am
Personal roboport is almost unusable without the reactor.
All kinds of stuff is completely unusable without the right research. This is literally complaining that you don't want to do the research on what you want, but you still want it.
The point is, that if you need the research and choose not to do Military Science (which was Developer's intention, that Military Science should be purely optional and not needed for a world without biters), then you should have everything non combat available.
bobucles wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:32 pm
But you can carry around full sized roboports to build anywhere important. Power armor isn't needed for base building at any point in the game.
If you arrive at a new location to mine stuff, it's much easier to just place blueprints, link them with belts (if needed), and then connect everything to electricity. If you use purely belts on outposts, then you don't need to place roboport. Remmember, this game is about automatization.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by CDarklock »

melichor wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:41 am
The point is, that if you need the research and choose not to do Military Science (which was Developer's intention, that Military Science should be purely optional and not needed for a world without biters), then you should have everything non combat available.
But you can use power armour for combat, and it's designed for combat. It's not non-combat, even if it has non-combat uses.

I primarily use cluster grenades to clear out trees. That is a non-combat use, but calling cluster grenades non-combat doesn't make sense.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by bobucles »

If you arrive at a new location to mine stuff, it's much easier to just place blueprints, link them with belts (if needed), and then connect everything to electricity. If you use purely belts on outposts, then you don't need to place roboport.
I think you missed the point. Players can carry roboports and place them anywhere to do stuff. The personal roboport is a very redundant tech and by no means mandatory.

The personal roboport is very useful for combat. You can use them to turret creep and repair fortifications in the thick of battle. Normal roboports struggle with the same thing.

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by nemostein »

Agree with OP... If the new arrangement of the tech tree is to make each science research more specific, then using military on power armor II and portable nuclear is a step against it.
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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by melichor »

CDarklock wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:41 pm
melichor wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:41 am
The point is, that if you need the research and choose not to do Military Science (which was Developer's intention, that Military Science should be purely optional and not needed for a world without biters), then you should have everything non combat available.
But you can use power armour for combat, and it's designed for combat. It's not non-combat, even if it has non-combat uses.

I primarily use cluster grenades to clear out trees. That is a non-combat use, but calling cluster grenades non-combat doesn't make sense.
But as you said, it has non-combat use, so it should be possible to get it in non-combat run without using Military science
bobucles wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:55 pm
If you arrive at a new location to mine stuff, it's much easier to just place blueprints, link them with belts (if needed), and then connect everything to electricity. If you use purely belts on outposts, then you don't need to place roboport.
I think you missed the point. Players can carry roboports and place them anywhere to do stuff. The personal roboport is a very redundant tech and by no means mandatory.

The personal roboport is very useful for combat. You can use them to turret creep and repair fortifications in the thick of battle. Normal roboports struggle with the same thing.
No, I understood it perfectly. What I say, is that the personal roboport is just an issue of ease of use. Red and Blue belts aren't mandatory, you can do everything with Yellow belts, therefore you shouldn't need Red and Blue belts to do stuff, right?

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Re: [0.17] Remove military science from power armor Mk2 and portable fusion reactor research

Post by CDarklock »

melichor wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:26 am
But as you said, it has non-combat use, so it should be possible to get it in non-combat run without using Military science
Everything has a non-combat use. The question is whether it has a significant combat use.

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