Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.
SyncViews
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Re: Idling player should delete/place ghosts in reach

Post by SyncViews »

Firstly, construction bots are very good at fixing and replacing stuff biters break. The player could literally spend all their time running back and forth otherwise.

And late game, bots are just so much better :) I use bots to literally build at the other side of the map, I build entire outposts sometimes without ever going there. Just have the construction bots build their own logistics network from scratch, sometimes I'll be expanding 2-3 places at the same time. You could literally play without moving if you wanted to.

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Autoplace buildings with a left click in blueprint

Post by nr2117 »

I have been playing with my cousin who hasn't played since .15. I placed a blueprint down and he was left clicking on the ghost buildings to see if it'd build. I told him he had to select the item, rotate it, then place it.

My feature suggestion is, if there is a blueprint, that you can simply left click, and if you have the item in your inventory, it will automatically place down, with the correct orientation.

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Re: Idling player should delete/place ghosts in reach

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into older topic with same or very similar suggestion.
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[0.17] Replacing Ghosts with Entities

Post by deer_buster »

TL;DR
Allow a hotkey press to place entities ONLY over ghosts that have already been placed ala how the power poles handle it (albeit without a hotkey)

What ?
Just like how the power poles place over ghosts already placed, allow us the ability to place all other entities over their ghost with a hotkey press (perhaps Ctrl or Alt)
Why ?
Why? Because trying to place entities over ghosts is unnecessarily a pain the arse when you have hundreds of ghosts laid out (such as when you place blueprints before bots). The power poles placing in the correct location was a pleasant surprise, but we need that same functionality with a hotkey press for all other entities that can be placed as ghosts.

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into other topic with alternative solutions to the same issue : how to help hand building on blueprints before construction bots. Also changed the topic title accordingly.
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leadraven
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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by leadraven »

Yeah, ghosts/copy-paste/blueprints are absolutely useless without bots. Game definitely lacks a way to materialize ghosts manually.

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by ikarikeiji »

How about a compromise that doesn't overpower hand-auto-building:

Either:

1. You have to click (or click and drag over) each ghost you want to build (with no item selected), it then builds it as long as you have the item in your inventory.

Or:

2. You have to walk over each ghost you want to build, the entity is then built once you leave its collision box (again as long as you have the item).

I think this would be better than just auto building everything in build range.

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by BlueTemplar »

Neat ideas !
leadraven wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:45 am
Yeah, ghosts/copy-paste/blueprints are absolutely useless without bots.
I would have gone with "still very useful"...

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Tankh »

leadraven wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:45 am
Yeah, ghosts/copy-paste/blueprints are absolutely useless without bots.
I fully disagree

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Darinth »

I mean... not absolutely useless... but honestly only of marginal use still.

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Ranakastrasz »

Two things I've seen that could work.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/there-is-my-ghost
In which it prevents you from building wrongly on a ghost. So you can drag place, but still need to do most of the work.

And a second one. Auto-rotate. If you place a belt, inserter, chemical plant, whatever, it will set the rotation to that of the ghost.
Alternatively, block placement if it is rotated wrong as well.

So, you place the blueprint, and manually paint over it, but have filters so it won't screw up. If you miss it won't erase part of the blueprint and have you pick stuff back up. Inserters won't be installed backwards. Belts will not require tons of rotation and interpretation.

I get the, No automation until robots for building. I just want a smart placement safety net. It doesn't even have to save much work, just make it so you can't break the blueprint while manually building it.
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Friendly Blueprint building

Post by Ranakastrasz »

Suggested over and over again, having the player autobuild when idle is never going to happen outside of the many, many mods that already do it. However, a lesser improvement might be accepted.

After seeing this mod, In which it prevents you from building wrongly on a ghost. So you can drag place, but still need to do most of the work.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/there-is-my-ghost

Secondly, extend it to respect rotation, so it either
A, Easier variant, set the rotation to that of the ghost image on placement. If you build an inserter on an inserter ghost, the ghost is built, ignoring the rotation of the inserter you just tried to place.
B, Harder variant, forbids placement if rotation does not match. So in the above case, it will simply error out, claiming that the ghost image doesn't match what you tried to build.

The effect is, if you place a blueprint, you still have to build it manually. Each and every piece. However, you get a safety net, ensuring that if you misclick, you don't have to then remove the mistaken piece and then place the blueprint again.

Essentially, I want to be able to use Blueprints early-game with the same precision you get with bots, but with most of the downsides of manual building.
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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Darinth »

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:20 pm
Two things I've seen that could work.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/there-is-my-ghost
In which it prevents you from building wrongly on a ghost. So you can drag place, but still need to do most of the work.

And a second one. Auto-rotate. If you place a belt, inserter, chemical plant, whatever, it will set the rotation to that of the ghost.
Alternatively, block placement if it is rotated wrong as well.

So, you place the blueprint, and manually paint over it, but have filters so it won't screw up. If you miss it won't erase part of the blueprint and have you pick stuff back up. Inserters won't be installed backwards. Belts will not require tons of rotation and interpretation.

I get the, No automation until robots for building. I just want a smart placement safety net. It doesn't even have to save much work, just make it so you can't break the blueprint while manually building it.
This I can definately get behind. Blocking placement where there are ghosts and autorotating your placements so that they line up with ghosts would be fantastic. It means click and drag works for most structures. I'd even go so far as to say 'If you start a click and drag on a ghost, block *all* placement that isn't for ghosts' which means what you're laying down the real belt for a ghost, if your cursor gets off you aren't accidentally placing belts in the open spots. Ghosts become useful from a game-mechanics point of view and give the player a reason outside of basic planning to use them, but are still very distinctly overshadowed by bots.

Edit: And upon actually looking at the mod, it has close to what I was talking about. I'd have it's 'strict mode' turned on automatically if you start placement on a blueprint and drag.

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Re: Friendly Blueprint building

Post by Darinth »

I'm one of the people that generally doesn't like the idea of auto-building while idle, but as I said in the other thread where this idea first came up: I love this idea. I'm even perfectly fine with the 'easier' version of rotating. I'd also even add one further addendum: turn on something akin to the 'strict' mode of there is my ghost, which prevents you from building anywhere but on your ghosts, if you start placement of entities on a ghost and start dragging. This means you plop down your blueprint, you use it to start dropping down your belts and even if your cursor slips you can't accidentally place belts at the wrong location in the spaces between your blueprint ghosts.

It gives blueprints a mechanical advantage, without coming close to what bots are capable of doing. I feel like I'd be way more likely to make use of blueprints early on, without any kind of delay in my choice to get bots.

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by BlueTemplar »

Maybe we could have Compis to build stuff for us with their tiny hands? :D

(source : Klonan)

Requirements : Engine, also maybe should be a bit slower than in this video... and "burner" Compi-port?

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Re: Friendly Blueprint building

Post by Koub »

@OP : I feel this should be merged to that other topic Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots
The mod you linked is a very valid way to try and address the gap between how useful early game blueprints could be, and how of little use they are. Are you OK for the merging ?

If this was added to vanilla, I'd rather have the "easy" placement :
- no need to choose manually the orientation of the items when brushing over ghosts.
- no way to accidentally place a building where there is no ghost.

My reasons : with very linear builds (like a smelting array) it's quite easy to be careful of the entity orientation, it's mostly a run and plonk.

However on more exotic blueprints, where you have inserters everywhere, complex belt layouts, ..., it would be quite punishing to spend one's time rotating and brushing with entities until the right rotation is achieved at the right place.
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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Ranakastrasz »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:58 pm
Maybe we could have Compis to build stuff for us with their tiny hands? :D
--SNIP--
Requirements : Engine, also maybe should be a bit slower than in this video... and "burner" Compi-port?
That's horrifying. And kinda adorable.

Also how does that even work? Obvious roboport modified there, but they don't dock, and wander around instead.
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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by BlueTemplar »

Klonan did black magic, breeding biter/conbot hybrids? :lol:
(EDIT : Black magic indeed.)

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by Darinth »

The first image was mostly adorable. The second image skips straight from 'unsettling' to 'Ohh god... what have you done..."

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Re: Better mechanism for hand building over ghosts before robots

Post by SyncViews »

Might be regular units (like biters) and then the construction bit is scripted. Find a ghost, then find a chest, give it the relevant "goto" command, do stuff when it arrives. You can create non-damaging beams for various effects. Impressive amount of work to bring it all together with enough optimisation.

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