Logistics Robot Balance

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SpaghettiCrazy
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Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Making transport belt systems with rails, trains and construction robots is fun. It creates puzzles and problems of which have meaning to solve, but the logistics robots in Factorio are way too overpowered. Who needs belts, inserters and just general problem solving when you can set up a system of logistics robots that blot out the sun instead? It removes the fun, puzzle part of the game, leaving just work. Adding more roboports, setting up more logistics chest until I might as well be doing the chores I am procrastinating to play Factorio. I know you can just not use them but ignoring part of a game just feels, wrong. I feel they need to be changed in some way or even completely removed to make the game feel less like work in the later stages.

Ideas include
adding a more than just a roboport, splitting up the effect transmission, robot storage, charging pad, etc.
Making the robots somehow land based, possibly with paths, colliding
Last edited by SpaghettiCrazy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by Rseding91 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:59 pm

Steam reviews say you're wrong as do I.
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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by jodokus31 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:14 pm

I would just recommend you to don't use them everywhere. They are quite nice for a mall area for crafting construction stuff or satellite ingredients, etc.
But for mass intermediate product, its indeed boring and maybe even less efficient, if you take good advantage of belts and trains... (but only maybe :))

BTW: There was a big discussion about this in the past and there's not much left to discuss anymore... ;)

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by bobucles » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:22 pm

Rseding91 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:59 pm
Steam reviews say you're wrong as do I.
Silly devs. You're supposed to deliver sick burns from your alt accounts.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by Tekky » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:30 am

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:14 pm
BTW: There was a big discussion about this in the past and there's not much left to discuss anymore... ;)
Yes, here are the links to the corresponding Factorio Friday Facts:

Friday Facts #224 - Bots versus belts
Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

These articles contain links to the corresponding disucssion threads.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by Tricorius » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:45 pm

SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:56 pm
It removes the fun, puzzle part of the game, leaving just work. Adding more roboports, setting up more logistics chest until I might as well be doing the chores I am procrastinating to play Factorio.
I think something that a lot of players miss is that there are some unique puzzle components of robots too.

Yes, if you just spam the same requester chest, provider chest feeding two assemblers blueprint down it certainly becomes boring (although you will still eventually run into a couple of the starting puzzles of logistics even with that basic setup).

Challenge yourself. Build a bot-based train station. Build an outpost that can maintain its outer walls and handle a goods level. Bots are wonderful for all of these things and open up more fun than just plunging down another set of assemblers and having robots fill the chests.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by bobingabout » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:45 am

oh god, stirring up the shit again.

My solution for balance, remove the roboport, replace it with roboparts. a storage, an effect transmitter, a charge pad, 3 separate entities.
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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:58 am

bobingabout wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:45 am
oh god, stirring up the shit again.

My solution for balance, remove the roboport, replace it with roboparts. a storage, an effect transmitter, a charge pad, 3 separate entities.
That's a great idea but I feel It's just the same thing a bit more complicated. Maybe if the robots were ground based, following set paths. Or if the flying robots had to navigate around each other. They could get "Elevation Awareness" upgrades allowing more per square, but that second option would lead to the same problem.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by 5thHorseman » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:31 am

If you find an optional aspect of the game to be not fun, don't partake in that optional activity.

Problem solved.
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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:48 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:31 am
If you find an optional aspect of the game to be not fun, don't partake in that optional activity.

Problem solved.
As I said in the forum description, the ignoring of an aspect of the game just feels wrong. Like just not playing Hanzo in Overwatch. Sure you can do it but playing anything else makes it seem like you're missing out. Plus, I would like to use logistics robots! Robotic transport sounds cool and is used in real factories, but it defeats the problem solving part of the game to have them.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by 5thHorseman » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:39 am

SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:48 am
As I said in the forum description, the ignoring of an aspect of the game just feels wrong. Like just not playing Hanzo in Overwatch. Sure you can do it but playing anything else makes it seem like you're missing out. Plus, I would like to use logistics robots! Robotic transport sounds cool and is used in real factories, but it defeats the problem solving part of the game to have them.
I've never played Overwatch but I get the idea. In FTL there are ... 20 I think ... ships that you can play. Some of them suck. Some of them are OP. I play them all, except the few that I find to be more work than fun. I play the ones that are really hard for the exact reason that they are really hard - it makes them more fun. I play the OP ones for the exact reason that they are OP - sometimes I just want to hit everything with a hammer and laugh. Your asking to remove logistic bots from the game is like asking to remove the OP ships from FTL - because their existence makes you not play the also very fun non-OP ships.

I wouldn't want them removed, and I don't want Logistic bots removed. Or nerfed. :)
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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by bobingabout » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:13 am

SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:58 am
if the flying robots had to navigate around each other.
there's one big reason why they don't right now. Performance.
Path finding is pretty expensive, being more expensive the longer the range. Robots are intentionally unlimited by where they can fly to simplify the path finding, and simplified to the absolute maximum, a straight line.
Biters (and Spitters) are a little different, and have had extensive rewrites to their path finding over the years to reduce their CPU usage.

Short answer, it has been stated by the developers that robots will never do anything other than fly in a straight line from point to point. This statement however does not rule out adding additional points to the route (like going from roboport to roboport) but such additional behaviour is highly unlikely.
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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by Darinth » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:41 pm

I think I've annoyed Rseding enough with discussion of fantasy pathing algorithms that I can't actually say I want implemented anyways. I can say that Wube is set pretty hard against *any* further drone intelligence. They'll do one thing and one thing only, go from point A to point B along a straight path.

I can understand wanting a change of some kind, but I'm not certain what it'd be. I can't honestly say I like any of the changes I've heard proposed in this or other topics, and since there are in fact a number of people who do want more drone intelligence to balance out the people who want drones to get nerfed... I feel drones are probably in a pretty reasonable place.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:15 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:13 am
SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:58 am
if the flying robots had to navigate around each other.
there's one big reason why they don't right now. Performance.
Path finding is pretty expensive, being more expensive the longer the range. Robots are intentionally unlimited by where they can fly to simplify the path finding, and simplified to the absolute maximum, a straight line.
Biters (and Spitters) are a little different, and have had extensive rewrites to their path finding over the years to reduce their CPU usage.

Short answer, it has been stated by the developers that robots will never do anything other than fly in a straight line from point to point. This statement however does not rule out adding additional points to the route (like going from roboport to roboport) but such additional behaviour is highly unlikely.
Another idea I had was the robots being ground based and going along a player set track. This wouldn't need the same pathfinding.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:20 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:39 am
SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:48 am
As I said in the forum description, the ignoring of an aspect of the game just feels wrong. Like just not playing Hanzo in Overwatch. Sure you can do it but playing anything else makes it seem like you're missing out. Plus, I would like to use logistics robots! Robotic transport sounds cool and is used in real factories, but it defeats the problem solving part of the game to have them.
I've never played Overwatch but I get the idea. In FTL there are ... 20 I think ... ships that you can play. Some of them suck. Some of them are OP. I play them all, except the few that I find to be more work than fun. I play the ones that are really hard for the exact reason that they are really hard - it makes them more fun. I play the OP ones for the exact reason that they are OP - sometimes I just want to hit everything with a hammer and laugh. Your asking to remove logistic bots from the game is like asking to remove the OP ships from FTL - because their existence makes you not play the also very fun non-OP ships.

I wouldn't want them removed, and I don't want Logistic bots removed. Or nerfed. :)
I feel like the logistics robots are more like the ships that are just work. They aren't very challenging to set up and don't have the same OP fun as the Factorio nukes and artillery.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:24 pm

Darinth wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:41 pm
I think I've annoyed Rseding enough with discussion of fantasy pathing algorithms that I can't actually say I want implemented anyways. I can say that Wube is set pretty hard against *any* further drone intelligence. They'll do one thing and one thing only, go from point A to point B along a straight path.

I can understand wanting a change of some kind, but I'm not certain what it'd be. I can't honestly say I like any of the changes I've heard proposed in this or other topics, and since there are in fact a number of people who do want more drone intelligence to balance out the people who want drones to get nerfed... I feel drones are probably in a pretty reasonable place.
Well one of my non pathfinding ideas including having the robots be ground based going along paths made by the player. There could be intersections and systems giving more purpose to the circuit networks.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by Darinth » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:15 pm

SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Darinth wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:41 pm
I think I've annoyed Rseding enough with discussion of fantasy pathing algorithms that I can't actually say I want implemented anyways. I can say that Wube is set pretty hard against *any* further drone intelligence. They'll do one thing and one thing only, go from point A to point B along a straight path.

I can understand wanting a change of some kind, but I'm not certain what it'd be. I can't honestly say I like any of the changes I've heard proposed in this or other topics, and since there are in fact a number of people who do want more drone intelligence to balance out the people who want drones to get nerfed... I feel drones are probably in a pretty reasonable place.
Well one of my non pathfinding ideas including having the robots be ground based going along paths made by the player. There could be intersections and systems giving more purpose to the circuit networks.
That sounds like pathfinding to me. Player lays paths, paths can intersect, drones have to have some level of intelligence on how to navigate them... unless the intersections are all just straight-through intersections at which point what's the point of drones? This is sounding like it's either A: a very very slightly varied belt system dressed up with pretty drones, or B: ... pathfinding.

Not to mention, they're hoping to release 0.17 experimental by end of month. The simple reality is that any way you look at it, this is a major game systems change. It'd have to come out and be iterated over several times for player feedback. That's just not going to happen with Wube trying to polish things off for the big 1.0.

Any change done to drones at this point would have to be simple. We're talking tweaks at this point.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:43 pm

Darinth wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:15 pm
SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Darinth wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:41 pm
I think I've annoyed Rseding enough with discussion of fantasy pathing algorithms that I can't actually say I want implemented anyways. I can say that Wube is set pretty hard against *any* further drone intelligence. They'll do one thing and one thing only, go from point A to point B along a straight path.

I can understand wanting a change of some kind, but I'm not certain what it'd be. I can't honestly say I like any of the changes I've heard proposed in this or other topics, and since there are in fact a number of people who do want more drone intelligence to balance out the people who want drones to get nerfed... I feel drones are probably in a pretty reasonable place.
Well one of my non pathfinding ideas including having the robots be ground based going along paths made by the player. There could be intersections and systems giving more purpose to the circuit networks.
Any change done to drones at this point would have to be simple. We're talking tweaks at this point.
I am hoping that this forum will produce ideas for said tweaks and changes. I believe logistics robots need some sort of reduction in power. Not as simple as a nerf. Something that makes the hybrid bases talked about in other forum discussions feasible.

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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by bobingabout » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:06 pm

SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:15 pm
Another idea I had was the robots being ground based and going along a player set track. This wouldn't need the same pathfinding.
SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Well one of my non pathfinding ideas including having the robots be ground based going along paths made by the player. There could be intersections and systems giving more purpose to the circuit networks.
You mean like trains?

do you realise how complex the train path finding system is?
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Re: Logistics Robot Balance

Post by SpaghettiCrazy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:36 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:06 pm
SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:15 pm
Another idea I had was the robots being ground based and going along a player set track. This wouldn't need the same pathfinding.
SpaghettiCrazy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Well one of my non pathfinding ideas including having the robots be ground based going along paths made by the player. There could be intersections and systems giving more purpose to the circuit networks.
You mean like trains?

do you realise how complex the train path finding system is?
I was thinking some sort of much less complex system that could only be made more complicated via gates and circuit networks. Kind of like the path system shown in this Minecraft mod at 8:45 but for the ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4gZckh5QLw
Last edited by SpaghettiCrazy on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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