ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

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Recipe tree GUI generator

Don't care
3
10%
Required to breathe in AngelBobSpaceX modded games.
2
7%
Won't suggest buying Factorio to mainsteam-game-minded friends until this is implemented.
2
7%
Won't suggest playing AngelBobSpaceX to Factorio-minded friends until this is implemented.
1
3%
It was CLEARLY part of the older roadmap draft, right? So let's make the roadmap great again!!
4
14%
Why can't you use FNEI instead? I don't get these chart/network requesting players.
0
No votes
Hell yes!
4
14%
Unsure.
3
10%
As a low priority?
7
24%
No.
3
10%
 
Total votes: 29

catma
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ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by catma » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:01 am

Basically this, but written as part of the roadmap.
viewtopic.php?t=59313

WHY?

Various languages -> supported

color blind players -> supported

some people who can't use FNEI to play AngelBobSpaceX mod even if their lives depended on it -> unsupported and unable to turn a 200+ hours game addiction into a 2000+ hours modded game religion blocked by ONLY this issue.

Being one of these people, I'll have to explain it to the FNEI-capable platers: my brain CRASHES under the recursively looking up ingredients 6 layers recursively without enough short-term memory to form even 1/3 of the chart/network in my head --- cluttered as my minds is by non-relevant branches of the recursive search. Me and my 4 brohers the same, we crashed and burned the entire holidays trying to figure out recipes that would be simple for FNEI-capable players to get (we since verified some and probably most people can use FNEI far more than we can)... What people like me need....

Recipe tree GUI improvements (originally assigned to Onyx in older roadmap drafts, but no longer non-vaguely committed to).

It will be SO USEFUL and SO NATURAL that even the FNEI-capable players will use it.

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Zavian » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:17 pm

What you propose (viewtopic.php?t=59313) is going to be problematic to implement in a way that works well for Bob's + Angel's. There are simply too many alternate recipes for too many ingredients. And too many loops where an ingredient in one of the steps is an output from a later step. That means before you can generate the tree, the player will need to make intelligent choices about which recipes to use, and somehow communicate that to the GUI. (Probably the easiest way to do that would resemble something like Helmod. Indeed if anyone wants to have a crack at doing this in Lua, at least as a proof of concept, then adding that chart to Helmod is probably a decent place to start. See https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Helfima/helmod or the image at https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... _multiple/ or the video tutorial at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9aADLch6r0, ).

If your brain crashes under the load, well I understand. Bob's + Angel's (plus the rest of the stuff that is Seablock) makes my head hurt as well. To the point that I need to write things down or manually draw the sort of chart you linked to (or use Helmod to help keep track. For browsing the recipe choices and planning research, I still prefer FNEI).

But none of this is a problem that exists in vanilla, so it isn't a problem the devs need to solve for vanilla. (Even if they did implement what you suggest for vanilla, a naive implementation that works with the set of vanilla recipes is likely to still have lots of problems with Angel's + Bob's). So this is the sort of thing that is probably best done as a mod. (Although if the devs want to work on it, then go ahead).

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Oktokolo
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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:41 pm

I don't know, what FNEI means, but the linked ingredient tree is nice to have. So would like to see it as a low priority roadmap item for 0.18 if they got time to burn and insist on not implementing the spidertron (but would still prefer the spidertron over this).


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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by vedrit » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:10 am

It would be neat, sure, but I like spreadsheets and no one can take that away from me!

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Koub » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:41 am

Lee_newsum wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:25 pm
This has bin done be for "Foreman" viewtopic.php?f=134&t=5576&hilit=Foreman

http://i.imgur.com/cWYtJhL.png
I concur, amongst all alternatives to this kind of tools, Foreman is my favourite by far. However, Formean - as all the other tools I know of - has one flaw : alternative recipe paths or recursive paths are not handled properly - even with only two recipes in vanilla (advanced oil, and coal liquefaction). With Bob's+Angels (which I've never tested, being a vanilla guy, n but that have been said to be extremely complex with many crafting trees possible for a single output), I think Foreman would not work either.

@OP : If you have the same problem in vanilla - which I'm sure you and you brothers don't, then your request makes sense (I'd also love to see it in vanilla as a QoL improvement). But it's clearly not mandatory to play the game, and the fact that when you choose to mod your game, you can't play it anymore is not a valid reason to demand for this feature to be added.
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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by catma » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:23 am

I can't get foreman to run. )-;

But I'm hopeful someone recodes it in a way I can use it at all --- or improve it!

I totally wished it was a mod, but I'll live with some sort of website or local html5/webGL utility.

Just don't make it dependant on a dying tech, plz. I'll want to use it 20+ years after factorio is out of fashion...

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Zavian » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:37 am

catma wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:23 am
I totally wished it was a mod, but I'll live with some sort of website or local html5/webGL utility
There is also https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.html (click the visualise tab). But that doesn't support Bob's + Angel's either. (Note sure whether it just needs the recipes added, or whether it will also need code changes. It does support Bob's however, and you can see how complex the graph gets with just Bob's for an advanced circuit. Source code is on github so it might be possible to adapt it to work with Angel's + Bob's).

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Koub » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:33 pm

There are quite a number of tools that do more or less what Foreman does. If you spend a little time in here : viewforum.php?f=134, you'll find quite a number of such production tree calculators.
However, I'm pretty much sure no tool can adequately help you if there are circular references and parallel paths in a certain product's crafting tree. Or to be more precise :
Most if not all tools will fail when the crafting tree becomes a crafting graph (which I believe bobs+angel's add a significative amount).
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by catma » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:49 am

1- If it's meant to calculate what ratio is best between input and immediate output for various situations such as modules and beacons --- I can do that without effort and call these "calculators". Calculators are legion and if they didn't exist, I can do these calculations fast on paper when tired and in my head when not tired. I SEE CALCULATORS AS AN ESSENTIALLY COVERED PROBLEM, EVEN IF NONE OF THEM IS PERFECT.

2- If it's about discovering what you need to make a X when you don't have shadow of a clue, even if it's only finding the first recipe in a set of 10 possible and ends up generally pointing out the very worse one --- it's a "Recipe tree maker" and I need one. I still can't play AngelBobSpaceX without one.

3- "Recipe tree makers" need improvement for certain situations: recursion, and large number of identical input for a lot of intermediate steps, and a generic power calculation since so many fuel sources are possible for powering furnaces. The best VANILLA-ONLY recipe tree maker I know is this one:

https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... litter:f:1

(you may need to click the "visualize" tab)

if it supported AngelBobSpaceX or whatever combo I am playing, just by being part of the game or being able to read into mod files for recipes so it's not out of date quickly, it would be tremendously useful and required for some people to play AngelBobSpaceX to the end.

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by catma » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:45 am

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-277 relates to all GUI improvement efforts --- "Recipe explorer" is the entry that may or may not be what I need.

problem is, factorio team reduced the initial roadmap clarity level, so I don't know if it's:

1- a small tweak

2- a FNEI clone

3- a true recipe tree in this style, good enough for vanilla and possibly properly generated for less ambitious mods: https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... e-pack:f:1

4- or a true recipe tree as in 3, but generated from mod data with adjustment for super frequent input to many intermediates being cluttery (AngelBobSpaceX), loops (AngelBobSpaceX's wood to saplings to wood), finding the proper furnaces that can do something then sorting by efficiency and already-reached tech (AngelBobSpaceX), or the whole thing being very large(AngelBobSpaceX).

The whole thing brings a 200+ hours game into a 2000+ modded game. Without it, it's similar to playing vanilla without blueprints.

P.S.: there is also that mod that puts a green/yellow/red dot depending on whether machines receive ideal or near-ideal input. That would be nice to be in vanilla. The concept is so NECESSARY that even other factory type games --- including SMALL FOLLOWING ones, get a mod like this pretty early.

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:43 am

catma wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:45 am
P.S.: there is also that mod that puts a green/yellow/red dot depending on whether machines receive ideal or near-ideal input. That would be nice to be in vanilla. The concept is so NECESSARY that even other factory type games --- including SMALL FOLLOWING ones, get a mod like this pretty early.
Bottleneck is definitely not needed if not going for perfect ratios. It is only nice to have. I use it when tweaking blueprints in creative mode.

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by Koub » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:53 am

kovarex wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:04 pm
Muppet9010 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:30 pm
Recipe Explorer, is this a new feature or a name for the little window that tells you the recipe for an item?
It is a new feature that will have some of the functionality of the mod (https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RecExplo).
The main motivation is to have quick answers to these kind of questions about an item:
  • What is this item used for.
  • Get me info about the ingredients.
  • What are other ways to make these products? (if any)
It could be quite a simple and small window, but could help with these problems, mainly for new players and modded games.
Source : viewtopic.php?p=393998#p393998
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: ADD TO ROADMAP: Recipe tree GUI improvements

Post by catma » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:26 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:43 am
catma wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:45 am
P.S.: there is also that mod that puts a green/yellow/red dot depending on whether machines receive ideal or near-ideal input. That would be nice to be in vanilla. The concept is so NECESSARY that even other factory type games --- including SMALL FOLLOWING ones, get a mod like this pretty early.
Bottleneck is definitely not needed if not going for perfect ratios. It is only nice to have. I use it when tweaking blueprints in creative mode.
Bottleneck is useful when messing around with multiple unfamiliar machines with complicated requirements, multiple paths to multiple input types, multiple side effect of producing certain ores a certain way, and options and modules, before having a sense of what you'll use in your optimal assembly line calculations --- the math goes AFTER you know really what produces what without costing too much. AKA "Bottleneck is good for AngelBobSpaceX". I agree it's more of a "nice to have" than a "must have" but it is a VERY nice to have in that mod combo!

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