Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

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GrumpyJoe
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by GrumpyJoe »

im not saying that this shouldn´t be a thing, i just dont understand the urge to build rails and control trains that way, at least in vanilla.

There will always be use cases that the system isnt supporting, or better not optimal to implement in.
You might find support in 10% playerbase for this "max trains per station", but others might have a slightly different problem

If anyone who wants it hasn´t got a problem using mods, i suggest using LTN, cos it solves all of these problems at once.
If you wanna play vanilla and still want hta, i honestly wish everyone here good luck in convincing the devs, cos i ran into these problems before, i totally understand the technical side.
And i even agree in its functionality being very helpful, as a rail"powered" big base isn´t that unusual.

Im just hesitant to throw in a "hey, why not use this mod?" from the start, cos some people seem to get annoyed by that ;)

Lets see what 0.17 brings, i might test a few things unmodded, until mods are save updating my 0.16 base

Sad_Brother
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Sad_Brother »

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:24 pm
If anyone who wants it hasn´t got a problem using mods, i suggest using LTN, cos it solves all of these problems at once.
I do not like LTN because it is "just works" magically. This suggestion is better imho.

Hta?

GrumpyJoe
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by GrumpyJoe »

Sad_Brother wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:43 pm
GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:24 pm
If anyone who wants it hasn´t got a problem using mods, i suggest using LTN, cos it solves all of these problems at once.
I do not like LTN because it is "just works" magically. This suggestion is better imho.

Hta?
it solves alot of whats discussed in "more vanilla train functionality" threads, but i think you cant imagine the many ways you can screw it up.
If you think its fire and forget, you are in for some fun :D

The only thing thats missing from those proposal is a depot from which trains "magically" start to every possible station, right wagon type given.

Sad_Brother
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Sad_Brother »

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:02 pm
it solves alot of whats discussed in "more vanilla train functionality" threads, but i think you cant imagine the many ways you can screw it up.
If you think its fire and forget, you are in for some fun :D

The only thing thats missing from those proposal is a depot from which trains "magically" start to every possible station, right wagon type given.
It should be interesting to listen how can LTN fail. (if it is not against the rules here)

"Depot" proposal is easy aside of LTN and was suggested in another thread.

GrumpyJoe
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by GrumpyJoe »

it would be kinda offtopic, but meh
The mod itself does not fail. The failure, as so often, is is to be found in front of the PC :D
offtopic
basicly it exchanges creating schedules and maybe clever wires in a vanilla setup, with more wires and combinators that you should try to understand or it can backfire.
i use it because setting up stations is what i like, but creating schedules not so much. I haven´t really used it in vanilla but even with its "low" item type numbers it can help (Nilaus´ Modular Megabase series comes to mind)
For more complicated games like AB or Pyo its basicly acting like a bulk bot network, there is way too much items to just belt them around for my likings and scheduling that would be a nightmare.
Last edited by GrumpyJoe on Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chrisi
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Chrisi »

I would like to have a train system where I name all my stations at the different mining outposts the same. for example "Iron pickup" and "Copper pickup".
At a factory that requires iron I would set up a station with the name "Gear wheels production" for example and one or more trains, depending on resource consumption, with the schedule:
-Iron pickup (Inventory full)
-Gear wheels production (Inventory empty)

This way, I do not have to micromanage stations and train schedules each time a mine runs out. Right now it doesnt work because of the thundering herd problem.
Please consider this hopefully simple feature so we can more easily automate resource transportation.

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Mike5000
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Mike5000 »

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:22 am
i understand the problem, but i dont understand why anyone would set it up like this

take the example of 10 ore stations (with one waiting bay) x2 trains into one big smelter with (hopefully) a stacker that can hold 20 trains
It's easy in vanilla to have multiple mines feeding one smelter, or one smelter feeding multiple factories. Problems arise when you need multiple sources feeding multiple destinations. You have a choice of LTN - a miracle of engineering but also complex and error prone - or trying to squeeze everything through a single set of cross docks.

This proposal - or the equivalent modding interface proposal - enables one to build multiple mines feeding multiple smelters to multiple factories without crippling slowdowns due to thundering herds.

Darinth
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Darinth »

Actually, I don't think that convincing the devs is all that big of a difficulty. In this particular instance, I doubt they have any serious issue with the proposal (at least in concept). The simple fact that factorio supports stations sharing the same name and semi-intelligently routing trains to those stations as they become active indicates that Wube intends it to be an appropriate method of scheduling trains (if not *the* ideal method of scheduling them in vanilla), but it has a deficiency. It certainly seems like Wube would like to fix this, so that their obviously intentional methodology of train routing works well.

Chrisi
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Chrisi »

One more thing to consider is how trains should behave when the maximum number of trains per train stop is changed.
I suggest a stop with a max number of 0 trains should behave exactly like a deactivated station. If a train is pathing to a train stop and the max number is changed to 0, it should either find another station with the same name or stop with a no path error if no active train stop is found.
If the max number of trains per stop is changed and after the change there are more trains pathing to the stop than the max amount, the exceeding trains should first try to repath, or if repathing is unsuccessful, stop with no path error.

rldml
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by rldml »

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:02 pm
it solves alot of whats discussed in "more vanilla train functionality" threads, but i think you cant imagine the many ways you can screw it up.
If you think its fire and forget, you are in for some fun :D
Yeah, that's my problem with LTN and other train-scheduling-mods: You have to use trains in their manner. Or to say it more general: You exchange the existing complexity of train scheduling through another. And this is only an advantage for you, if you design your factory to work best with the mod you want to use.

That does not have to be a problem, but for me it is. Train scheduling and train automating is my favorite part of the game.

That's why i request more control on train scheduling in vanilla.

GrumpyJoe
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by GrumpyJoe »

Well, if you found out what you need, got your station blueprints set, its only a matter of connecting it all. And maybe add more depots. It just takes some time to get that going.

I understand that after that point its not very interesting :)

Koub
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by Koub »

From my understanding, this will be addressed by https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-361
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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AmericanPatriot
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by AmericanPatriot »

+1 please add this. It is the one thing every person can agree on.
:D

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ssilk
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Re: Simple Solution To Thundering Train Herd

Post by ssilk »

Moved to implemented. Waiting for release. :D
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