Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

Post Reply
Trebor
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:39 pm
Contact:
Contact Trebor

Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by Trebor »

Most factories use accumulators for over night power. I'm currently building a factory where each production unit's power usage is isolated from the main power supply through accumulators. This means when I do start putting in solar power accumulators will not be able to supply over night power since accumulators can't be used to recharge accumulators. So steam power will always be used for power at night. Currently my factory is using boilers to supply steam, and it currently it does not have enough power (temporarily on purpose).

The problem I have is the power graph does not show there is not enough power because the accumulators are tracked as a power source even though they are being charged. (In my factory they will always be charged since they will always be drained by the associated production unit.)

What I'd like is a way to flag accumulators that are being charged as not part of production.
Screen Shot 2018-10-08 at 7.33.36 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-10-08 at 7.33.36 PM.png (2.3 MiB) Viewed 2824 times
The attached factory can current produce 82.8Mw, but if it was in full production it would require 3,900Mw.
Top
quyxkh
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 9:01 am
Contact:
Contact quyxkh

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by quyxkh »

It's true that accumulators don't charge each other, but why do you say that means you can't use solar as your main supply?
Top
Trebor
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:39 pm
Contact:
Contact Trebor

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by Trebor »

Never said can’t use solar, just said steam has to be used at night.
Top
quyxkh
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 9:01 am
Contact:
Contact quyxkh

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by quyxkh »

But it doesn't. Solar charges the isolation buffers (same as any other power supply charges the isolation buffers), the isolated factory feeds off them. Have >~5x (7.5x for absolute safety) your sustained MW draw as MJ in the buffers at dusk and you're golden.
Top
herkalurk
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:55 pm
Contact:
Contact herkalurk

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by herkalurk »

This accumulator stuff is short term. Move onto higher power usage and you'll be running nuclear all day long. I have accumulators, basically for the rare event that some biters chew through my power grid isolating an outpost.
Top
quyxkh
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 9:01 am
Contact:
Contact quyxkh

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by quyxkh »

I'd think nuclear-powered accumulator banks are better than steam banks, no? So what if you need 100K of them. Make Elon proud.
Top
Trebor
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:39 pm
Contact:
Contact Trebor

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by Trebor »

The Accumulators are not isolated in a field with nothing around them, they are an integral part of the power distribution. In the picture below note each production unit has a pair of north/south forking power lines. These contain blocks of accumulators used to isolate the production unit from the main power network, they are sized to the production unit using this formula: ceil(max required/300k) + OCD [to make rectangular]. They are not sized to provide power overnight, they are used to isolate each unit's local power from the main power supply, they only have a few seconds of power.
Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 9.11.03 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 9.11.03 PM.png (215.72 KiB) Viewed 2688 times

Here is a close up view of one isolation block. Each accumulator in the block is part of two electrical networks.
Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 9.12.51 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 9.12.51 PM.png (2.71 MiB) Viewed 2688 times

Each production unit gets it's power through the accumulators also each production unit has a control circuit drawing power from the accumulators so the accumulators are always being drained by one network and charged by the other. And because the accumulators for one unit can't be used to supply power for another unit (accumulators can't charge accumulators) they shouldn't be listed on both the consumption and production side of the power info window at the same time. When the steam (and solar/nuclear when it finally gets added) fail then the accumulators will not be charging so should then be listed as producers.

Accumulators are only charged when there is excess power and they are only drained if there a power deficiency. If they are simultaneously being charged and drained they must be connected to two networks.

If my factory had enough power generation (which it currently does not; on purpose) the isolation accumulators would not drain less then 100%. What happens now is when many production units are active the accumulators drain, then the circuit network turn off the unit. But this lack of power on the main power network is very hard if not impossible to see using the current power information window.
Top
mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 5704
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:
Contact mrvn

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by mrvn »

quyxkh wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:23 pm
 I'd think nuclear-powered accumulator banks are better than steam banks, no? So what if you need 100K of them. Make Elon proud.
No. Steam banks are more compact. More MW/m².
Top
herkalurk
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:55 pm
Contact:
Contact herkalurk

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by herkalurk »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:18 pm
quyxkh wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:23 pm
 I'd think nuclear-powered accumulator banks are better than steam banks, no? So what if you need 100K of them. Make Elon proud.
No. Steam banks are more compact. More MW/m².
But I like nuclear more. it uses more resources which means I have to build more to make it work, which means more factorio.
Top
quyxkh
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 9:01 am
Contact:
Contact quyxkh

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by quyxkh »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:18 pm
quyxkh wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:23 pm
 I'd think nuclear-powered accumulator banks are better than steam banks, no? So what if you need 100K of them. Make Elon proud.
No. Steam banks are more compact. More MW/m².
I dunno if I'd go all declarative on that, there's a tradeoff there, steam tanks are much more compact but you pay a UPS hit for fluid flow and even at ~2.4GJ/tank you need a lot of them, and they have to be right there or the cost goes even higher, fast. An 11×11-substation accumulator bank holds as much as 20 tanks, but with the overhead and complexity of zero tanks and you can plop it out of the way and forget it. Need more? Plop another wherever. I think the convenience alone is valuable. Plus, like herkalurk, I like nuclear more :-)

----

Back on topic, OP, your isolators don't look capacious enough to handle even the instantaneous flow you're talking about, to deliver 3900MW you need 13000 accumulators, it's only 4x more to buffer enough to run overnight, why not just bite the bullet and do it? I can't imagine you're going to hand-string separated power lines to all those pods individually, one misclick and you've joined your grids. You can mix about half the solar panels you're going to need anyway into the big buffer area to keep the tines blueprintable.



You're not the first to want the summary display to stop treating accumulator output as production, it's got its quirks and you can train yourself to read it, but it does seem unnecessarily and maybe a bit pointlessly hard to interpret as it stands now. Sorry if I got sidetracked by the can't-isolate-solar claim, I think there was an implicit "with my current design" clause in there that I missed.
Top
Trebor
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:39 pm
Contact:
Contact Trebor

Re: Power graph when accumulators used for isolation

Post by Trebor »

Maybe you wouldn't hand wire in 74 separate pods but that's what I've done and the factory is not completely built. Each one has a separate (checked and rechecked) power network.
Screen Shot 2018-10-12 at 1.27.16 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-10-12 at 1.27.16 AM.png (88.06 KiB) Viewed 2630 times

Here is the math used to determine how many accumulators were needed to run one green circuit unit:
Screen Shot 2018-10-12 at 1.24.18 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-10-12 at 1.24.18 AM.png (248.95 KiB) Viewed 2630 times
(Ignore the 138.xx number, I don't even remember what its use was for.)

Does the above math look correct?

According to the Wiki 35 (28+OCD) accumulators will supply it with power for just over 17 seconds. To supply 8,317,000 for 125 seconds (length of night&twilight) would require 206 accumulators. (Math might be way off here.) The real estate required to place enough accumulators to both isolate and supply overnight power for each production unit is not practical (for this factory).

<start rant>This falls under the category of: My factory is not Your factory. Overnight green power as a design consideration was explicitly ruled out when this factory was started. It is not an oversight to be corrected.<end rant>
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”