Make difficulty based achievements

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

Post Reply
User avatar
Gergely
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:31 pm
Contact:

Make difficulty based achievements

Post by Gergely »

Achievements that are only available with specific presets in the world generator.
Why?
The only achievements in-game that offer any challenge are the speed run/timed achievements. The player can get any other achievement by simply spending a lot of time with the game and pulling off some very simple feats after reaching certain parts of the game, in mostly peaceful worlds. Ultimately, the most efficient way of earning achievements becomes abusing the world generator, which actually ruins the fun of the game. I'm looking at fff-225. There have to be achievements tied to specific world presets, because you need to make a difference between players who cleared the game on near-peaceful difficulty and the Factorio veterans who sent off 100 spaceships from hell. (Death World)
In other words:
Cabble wrote:Give us a challenge! :)
What?
Achievements tied to world presets that instantly fail if the world is generated with any other setting.
There should be a Death World variant for launching a rocket, producing a certain amount of an intermediate product and more.
Last edited by Gergely on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:57 am, edited 4 times in total.

Cabble
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by Cabble »

I totally agree. Really hard achievments would make the game (at least for me) alot more interesting. Since i completed all achievments I don't have many more goals to play for or reasons to build a mega base.

Don't get me wrong. The game is alot of fun. I spent ~550 hours. It would just be much better by simply adding challenging achievments. By the way i feel a bit bad beating "there is no spoon" in multiplayer with somewhat peaceful mode (minimized pollution settings and very big start area with alot of resources).
The most I dislike the 20M circs achievment. That was just boring grinding. It was the last I completed, doing half of it in a ~60 hour singleplayer game (using some improved railworld setting: very low ore frequency, but rich big patches; biter expansion enabled!). I ended up with ~100 SPM and some nice outposts which was fun but now i finished everything and there was no real hard achievment I can be proud of. Even "there is no spoon" is not too hard if you can do it with very easy settings. :(

Give us a challenge! :)

4xel
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by 4xel »

I don't think there should be any more achievements. IMO, achievement should not necessarilly be hard, they should provide the players with ideas of what to do next, if they need them. For a game like the Binding of Isaac, which is all about suffering, night impossible achievements are definitely a great addition to the game. But for sandbox games like Minecraft, Kerbal Space Program or factorio, I don't see hard achievements as much of a necessity.

Current achievements are not easy. They provide a tough and interesting challenge to new players, even when done in peaceful mode, but most of all they provide them wiht ideas about what to do next. Factorio achievement are not hard for the sake of them being hard, they are hard because Factorio itself is a hard game, which makes it interesting. Achievements are just one of many fancy display of that difficulty, they may not constitute the difficulty themselves.

What about veteran players then?

Well, IMO, achievements add a compulsory incentive to check them all, kind of tell the players what they should be doing, which defeats the purpose of a sandbox game.

What to do then?

If you look at Minecraft, achievement came long after the game was a best seller, and even today are but a minor aspect of the game, whose primary purpose is teaching (even though some achievement are pretty hard). What keeps MC player playing is not achievement, it is multiplayer, mod, self motivated projects. In other words players, both as individuals and community, create the incentive to play further.
Same thing can be said about KSP, which has a whole subforum dedicated to challenge and mission ideas.
Factorio also has a subforums dedicated to custom scenarios and maps, as well as an active modding community.

But built-in achievement brings something user made challenge can't replace.

Well, the only pro it has is the "built in" part. It's meaningless to me, I can fix myself my own creative goals and restrictions, stick to them and feel accomplished. But I totally get the appeal of a game enforcing generic restrictions and asking for the player to complete a generic goal. I personally think it's the role of custom maps to bring most of such content, but arguments can be made in favor of more scenarios in the base game, as well achivements tied to them I guess.

For the shinny reward part, achievements are completely moddable if I'm not mistaken. Not necessarily modded yet, but definitely moddable (a mod request could help).

For the bragging right parts, achievement are trivially hackable through a myriad of ways, for example joining a server or sharing a save. I don't see any easy way to prevent achivement hacking via each of these ways. Posting savegames, mission reports, or let's play is a much better bragging right, an interactive one and can be about any challenge you can possibly think of.

User avatar
Gergely
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by Gergely »

4xel wrote:I don't think there should be any more achievements. IMO, achievement should not necessarilly be hard, they should provide the players with ideas of what to do next, if they need them. For a game like the Binding of Isaac, which is all about suffering, night impossible achievements are definitely a great addition to the game. But for sandbox games like Minecraft, Kerbal Space Program or factorio, I don't see hard achievements as much of a necessity.
Achievements aren't milestones. They are feats the player can accomplish.
4xel wrote:Current achievements are not easy. They provide a tough and interesting challenge to new players, even when done in peaceful mode, but most of all they provide them wiht ideas about what to do next. Factorio achievement are not hard for the sake of them being hard, they are hard because Factorio itself is a hard game, which makes it interesting. Achievements are just one of many fancy display of that difficulty, they may not constitute the difficulty themselves.
Not every achievement should be as hard as the game itself. It is pretty easy to do the rest once you learned how to efficiently launch a rocket. But the Factorio trailer mentions something about "compact essence" that is not present anywhere at normal difficulty. Players can be lazy bastards and go all out on easy difficulty. (Most effective way to play, but not so fun.) The problem is, they make no difference between this:

Code: Select all

>>>eNpjYBBgMGZgYGBm4WFJzk/MYWVl5UrOLyhILdLNL0oF8jiTi0pT
UnXzM0FSbCmpxalFJcxA5SmZYJorNS81t1I3KbE4FchjTS9KLC5mZmb
myCzKz4OawFKcmJcCkiwuyc8DCbCWFKWmFjMzMXOXFiXmZZbmQhUyMA
IdwtDQIgfG/+sZDP7/B2Eg6wJQAoSBgJWRESgAA6zJOZlpaUBdLgwMC
o6MDIyTVDxByJ4RIq/nAGV8gIpE7IaKPGiFMiJWQxkdh6EMh/kwRj2M
0e/AaAwGn+0RjGqRde4Pq0qAJkMt4XBAMCCSLWBJxt63Wxd8P3bBjvH
Pyo+XfJMS7BkzZUN9BUrf2wEl2YEaGJngxKyZILAT5gMGmJkP7KFSN+
0Zz54BgTf2jKwgHSIgwsECSBzwZmZgFOADshb0AAkFGQaY0+xgxog4M
KaBwTeYTx7DGJft0f2h4sBoAzJcDkScABFgC+EuY4QyIx0gEpIIWaBW
IwZk61MQnjsJs/EwktVoblCBucHEAYsX0ERUkAKeC2RPCpx4wQx3BDA
EL7DDeMC4ZWZAgA/2LzSjUgClqJBW<<<
And this:

Code: Select all

>>>eNptUT1Iw0AUvtdL/KkiHboIIg5dK6IODtKciw7irptpc9VATUrS
Dv6ADhU6CC4uuugqgpuDuAguCopFJ7dKFwcHiyIOQn2X3jWl+OC9fPd
99/4uhMTIBCGE0n4t45o50Gg04+bz3Eu6HsdTb8YrWjzp2rmIRrss7n
OvQCnVLDv4RrnD19aTadPnuk71Fc/0faR7bM91ZAXNNx0LOd0vuI4g9
ILHubjVV/RMxy6uiYtYnQAOQnZKw4E3tslYoyEcUQUF4WgRAkgo0zM5
O5slZGRGOABsxs/nXjcODGjqo0yCD8ksXkmmuivB4pkE5RsJ2LEC2wr
sM5gI7NMIQbNXASvLJj0sBE2xJESA+mqtfPHzlYLf0/rTQnrZCBmAbk
yASCscHQq7VBsQVbNqSOnFgId7Ye8G6CIjLgKbwnA9j68YG0B0sodhZ
Iio0VKqTJxBNrBvtUlNgWejc48Eg2lRfFiEWxGChq3JQMIl1hQGQxVT
x0l7eytc7k51vGlr3TFDQs0wyf5ZoYNJtD18VPSxWuGNtobAF6x0qxP
+Wyp0qcXY7GN16w/j55NU<<<
4xel wrote:What about veteran players then?

Well, IMO, achievements add a compulsory incentive to check them all, kind of tell the players what they should be doing, which defeats the purpose of a sandbox game.
Does it really? Factorio is a sandbox game. But the player is still progresses towards something in a non-linear way. (Tech tree) Like Minecraft, Factorio also has a goal. The difference is, you can ignore it in Minecraft. You can't play Factorio without the goals set by the game. (But you can challenge yourself to reach those goals in different ways.) Even if you only want to build something using the circuit network, you need to get to it first. Factorio is non-linear, but it still comes down to launching a rocket, for space tech if not for beating the game.
4xel wrote:For the shinny reward part, achievements are completely moddable if I'm not mistaken. Not necessarily modded yet, but definitely moddable (a mod request could help).
Did I ever say this suggestion topic is for the vanilla game only? Modders, feel free to implement a solution to this. The "Ideas and Suggestions" part of the forum isn't for the vanilla game only.
4xel wrote:For the bragging right parts, achievement are trivially hackable through a myriad of ways, for example joining a server or sharing a save. I don't see any easy way to prevent achivement hacking via each of these ways. Posting savegames, mission reports, or let's play is a much better bragging right, an interactive one and can be about any challenge you can possibly think of.
You can hack yourself all the things you want in Minecraft. Or... any game really. But it only takes away from the fun. Why do people hack achievements? Don't ask me. A reasonable player never does this because there is simply no reason. Hacking is a completely different topic that we should not talk about at all.

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 7351
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by bobingabout »

Launch a rocket is a good achievement.
Launch a rocket in a death world would be an even better achievement.

it would give me a reason to play in that mode.
(actually, it wouldn't, because I play modded, so I don't actually unlock anything on steam. I mostly just continue playing on this old map generated in 0.10 as a testing ground.)
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2420
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by BlueTemplar »

Gergely wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:07 pm
4xel wrote:For the shinny reward part, achievements are completely moddable if I'm not mistaken. Not necessarily modded yet, but definitely moddable (a mod request could help).
Did I ever say this suggestion topic is for the vanilla game only? Modders, feel free to implement a solution to this. The "Ideas and Suggestions" part of the forum isn't for the vanilla game only.
Have you tried to directly contact those modders that added new achievements to the game?
(They might not read every forum message...)
BobDiggity (mod-scenario-pack)

User avatar
<NO_NAME>
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:52 am
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by <NO_NAME> »

I agree.

Achievements have to be challenging to get or they are not achievements but just some stuff you get for playing long enough.
It doesn't have to be the difficulty level of Super Meat Boy where you have to be pretty good at the game to get even the easiest badge.
Tying some achievements to difficulty setting or generator presets seems perfectly reasonable, though.

This is a little off-topic but it had weirded me out when I've realized that you need craft manually only 100 items to finish the game but you get the achievement for 111. This is a wide margin for something that is basically a logical puzzle.

I would also say that multiplayer achievements are cheating unless they are specifically designed for multiplayer. (an example would be "Give an item to another player when the nearest chest with that item is more than 1km away" or something)
I am a translator. And what did you do for Factorio?
Check out my mod "Realistic Ores" and my other mods!

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2420
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by BlueTemplar »

https://wiki.factorio.com/Achievements
Enabling peaceful mode or setting enemy bases to anything lower than default disables the following achievements: There is no spoon, No time for chit-chat, Raining bullets and Steam all the way.
[...]
In multiplayer, achievements can only be earned if the player has spent more than 50% of the time online.
BobDiggity (mod-scenario-pack)

User avatar
<NO_NAME>
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:52 am
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by <NO_NAME> »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:39 pm
https://wiki.factorio.com/Achievements
Enabling peaceful mode or setting enemy bases to anything lower than default disables the following achievements: There is no spoon, No time for chit-chat, Raining bullets and Steam all the way.
[...]
In multiplayer, achievements can only be earned if the player has spent more than 50% of the time online.
So join a server, do next to nothing for a few hours, maybe build some walls because that's easy, do some talking on the chat and voila: you have all the production achievements because some players were actually playing.
I am a translator. And what did you do for Factorio?
Check out my mod "Realistic Ores" and my other mods!

User avatar
freeafrica
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Make difficulty based achievements

Post by freeafrica »

tl;dr; Sorry for necrobump, +1 for this idea
(I've read in the guidelines that one should avoid opening up an idea w/ an existing thread.)

It would be superawesome to have (even the same) achievements per difficulty-preset. I think there is a pretty big hardcore player base for this game who likes the challenge.

I always play deathworld-marathon and it would be a motivation if I would unlock a "golden"-achievement if I manage to pull that off in that scenario.

It doesn't seem like a big investment from development perspective but it would give some people a lot to grind for! :twisted:

Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”