Infinite radar range research is a must now.

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Qon
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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Qon »

eradicator wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:07 pm
Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 11:14 am
That's only because those chunks haven't been generated and charting them requires generation.
That can't be quite true because it would mean that the artillery shells impact into chunks that do not exist at the time of impact. Here's a test command. Open the map, then run the command. (Warning: will freeze the game for a minute or so):
I didn't mean that artillery hit non-existing chunks. Just that while generation is ongoing the charting process is stopped because it has lower priority. The chunk are impacted by the artillery shell explosion are obviously completely generated when they hit so the game spawns the explosion after the chunks have completed their generation. But other chunks in the trail are generated in leftover idle cpu time. Generation is a multistep process. If you use Creative Mod and set your run speed to 20x then you can easily outrun the completed chunks and run on ground with no decorations, ores or enemies. And then they spawn in around you when you stop. And after a while, the map will be charted too.
eradicator wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:07 pm
If you run the first command again after this you will see that step 3) is now visibly slower. If you run it again and again and again, you will slowly see the speed increase until all the biters have respawned and the command runs "instantly" again.
Looks like the same speed to me after the first time regardless if I kill all units or not.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by eradicator »

Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:38 pm
Looks like the same speed to me after the first time regardless if I kill all units or not.
Might be time based and not change based? Wait a few minutes before running the command again? Or maybe your PC is a lot faster than mine. Try increasing the radius? It's a very obvious difference of 0 seconds before and 2~3 seconds afterwards on my machine.
Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:38 pm
Just that while generation is ongoing the charting process is stopped because it has lower priority.
Isn't that what i concluded above? Charting isn't free. So you can't have infinite-sized radar without paying the (infinite) processing cost.
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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by mrvn »

eradicator wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:38 pm
Looks like the same speed to me after the first time regardless if I kill all units or not.
Might be time based and not change based? Wait a few minutes before running the command again? Or maybe your PC is a lot faster than mine. Try increasing the radius? It's a very obvious difference of 0 seconds before and 2~3 seconds afterwards on my machine.
Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 12:38 pm
Just that while generation is ongoing the charting process is stopped because it has lower priority.
Isn't that what i concluded above? Charting isn't free. So you can't have infinite-sized radar without paying the (infinite) processing cost.
I think the devs said something at some time about "counting" the aliens on the chunks revealed by the radar being costly. Updating those little red dots on the map and mini-map.

Which would also explain why it takes time before the repeated command takes time. No aliens have moved into the chunks unless you give them time to expand.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by SkiCarver »

I too like the idea of improving the radars via research.

Perhaps give people the option "Scan x tiles around base", so they can set how far out they wish to go (tech progression permitting). This will ease the growth in cpu load due to discovered area.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Chao »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Qon »

Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.
I design my blueprints around the radars active scanning area. If it changes in size I have to rebuild everything. If I don't, the range upgrade is useless. And if I don't rebuild everything the block design that requires everything to be the same size would fail when the new parts intersect the old ones. Maybe if the larger range is a multiple of the current size it would work out but I would still need a new set of blueprints. So it's not trivial once you have standardized blueprints you want to reuse.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Chao »

Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 7:20 pm
Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.
I design my blueprints around the radars active scanning area. If it changes in size I have to rebuild everything. If I don't, the range upgrade is useless. And if I don't rebuild everything the block design that requires everything to be the same size would fail when the new parts intersect the old ones. Maybe if the larger range is a multiple of the current size it would work out but I would still need a new set of blueprints. So it's not trivial once you have standardized blueprints you want to reuse.
For main base blueprints I wouldn't change anything, for me this research is about the midrange where resource locations and routing around water dictate my layout more, but not so far that we're at the edges. And of course not every infinite research is for everyone. The infinites are more about applying to differing playstyles and preferences.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by SkiCarver »

Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 7:28 pm
Qon wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 7:20 pm
Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.
I design my blueprints around the radars active scanning area. If it changes in size I have to rebuild everything. If I don't, the range upgrade is useless. And if I don't rebuild everything the block design that requires everything to be the same size would fail when the new parts intersect the old ones. Maybe if the larger range is a multiple of the current size it would work out but I would still need a new set of blueprints. So it's not trivial once you have standardized blueprints you want to reuse.
For main base blueprints I wouldn't change anything, for me this research is about the midrange where resource locations and routing around water dictate my layout more, but not so far that we're at the edges. And of course not every infinite research is for everyone. The infinites are more about applying to differing playstyles and preferences.
I would argue the 'range' increase is about the border of your area ... how far out can you see in order to plan the take-over of new areas.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Chao »

SkiCarver wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:28 pm
I would argue the 'range' increase is about the border of your area ... how far out can you see in order to plan the take-over of new areas.
Which is fine, I can definitely see that reasoning for some people. My point was more that different infinite techs are about enabling playstyles and not needing to be for everyone.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by mrvn »

Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.
Overlap would be wasteful.

And when placing new radars it would be hard to keep to the old grid if the covered areas no longer align but overlap. Anything based on the size of radars would be hard to extend.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Chao »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 am
Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.
Overlap would be wasteful.

And when placing new radars it would be hard to keep to the old grid if the covered areas no longer align but overlap. Anything based on the size of radars would be hard to extend.
1. Overlapping improves sector scan
2. That is only an issue if you heavily care about avoiding overlap and have consistently built to a strict grid (see my use case of midrange expansion on water heavy maps and trying to fill in the gaps with radar/solar setups)
3. If the research doesn't make sense for you you can pick alternate infinite research

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by mrvn »

Chao wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2019 11:41 am
mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 am
Chao wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 pm
mrvn wrote: ↑
Thu May 09, 2019 10:43 am
Research to increase the always visible range also seems kind of pointless. Should I reposition all my radars every time I research the next level? Might make more sense to simply have a fixed number of radar mk X like mods already have.
Why would you need to reposition your radars every time? Having overlap doesn't hurt. But for newly placed radars you can spread them further apart.
Overlap would be wasteful.

And when placing new radars it would be hard to keep to the old grid if the covered areas no longer align but overlap. Anything based on the size of radars would be hard to extend.
1. Overlapping improves sector scan
2. That is only an issue if you heavily care about avoiding overlap and have consistently built to a strict grid (see my use case of midrange expansion on water heavy maps and trying to fill in the gaps with radar/solar setups)
3. If the research doesn't make sense for you you can pick alternate infinite research
I was talking about overlapping the always visible region. The sector scan I basically totally ignore. The amount of radars I place combined with the time it takes me to expand mean they mapped out plenty of chunks before I need it usually.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Hannu »

mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 am
Overlap would be wasteful.

And when placing new radars it would be hard to keep to the old grid if the covered areas no longer align but overlap. Anything based on the size of radars would be hard to extend.
That would be no problem. Just do not research radar expansions and you can keep perfect OCD treatment base running.

Many playstyles would get significant benefit if there were larger radar range. It would be best if there were individual adjustments for every radar (which would affect power consumption).

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by mrvn »

Hannu wrote: ↑
Tue May 14, 2019 8:35 am
mrvn wrote: ↑
Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 am
Overlap would be wasteful.

And when placing new radars it would be hard to keep to the old grid if the covered areas no longer align but overlap. Anything based on the size of radars would be hard to extend.
That would be no problem. Just do not research radar expansions and you can keep perfect OCD treatment base running.

Many playstyles would get significant benefit if there were larger radar range. It would be best if there were individual adjustments for every radar (which would affect power consumption).
I prefer to research radars mk II (1.5 times the range) and mk III (2 times the range) and then I can replace 2x2 radars mk I with one mk III and keep the OCD perfect grid. :)

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by JimBarracus »

we should also have different types of radars

-2x2 entity which only gives you visibility, no chunk scan. (to line up with batteries/ substations)
-directional radar, the uncovered area is not circular around the radar (like the flame thrower turret range)
-big radar, which has the same power consumption per uncovered/ scanned area.

-satellite tool, which gives you visibilty for a relativly big area in order to build something
-maybe something like 60s visibility and 60s cooldown
- available with the first satellite

its a massive pain to build something beyond radar range
I tend to build big battery arrays. When I expand them I need to place some radars in orders to be able to place the blueprint.
Even with bots it takes a long time untill the radar is ready.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by SkiCarver »

I like it. I particularly want a 'border visibility' radar like you describe.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by Ranger_Aurelien »

Maybe some more expensive radar that has no "discovery" feature but only scans "visible" chunks at 2x-4x rate?

Be aware that the game will create and follow all entities several chunks further* than the furthest radar and the furthest reach of your base's pollution cloud. Expanding your radar range will also very quickly increase the size of your save games (vis-a-vis disk space and for multiplayer, cloud sync, etc)**.

https://wiki.factorio.com/Radar

https://wiki.factorio.com/Pollution

https://wiki.factorio.com/Map_structure#Chunk


* I'm sure I read three chunks out but I can't find a reference at the moment.
** On one map, all I did was run a few screens out, set up solar powered single radar units in a ring around my base and save size ballooned from 7MB to 65MB.
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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by CheeseMcBurger »

Bumping this. I'm starting to build my first mega base and it's on train world. It makes the radars short scanning range very noticable the bigger the factory becomes and the more you need to scout ahead.

I don't have any strong feelings for infinite radar range, but the range should definitely be extended in some way.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by P.E.T.A.R. »

Agreed, it's a pain to scout out new areas with the short range.

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Re: Infinite radar range research is a must now.

Post by ssilk »

Just want to point this out:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/radar-tech
I didn’t try it.


Other radar mods that extends range:

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Moar-Radar

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/leighzerlongrangeradar

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Long_Range_Radar
I use that all the time, just nice and simple.


And a must have in vanilla: helper mod to see radar coverage while placing
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/SchallRadarAlignment

Also this:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/radar-signals
I think the usefulness is limited. The advantage of turning off laser power when there is no enemy is eaten up by the complexity to build this with an extra electric network.

And this radar signals could be useful in combination with the above, it should be able to scan a smaller area. This is also useful, but all in all much too complicated in my opinion (a future implementation should make things easier, not more complicated):
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ScanningRadar
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