Factorio Forums

With infinite research, factories need to grow and there is a point where growing becomes too much...

What if there is a (expensive) research that allows modules to be (a little) better over time so factories dont need to grow so much (but still need to grow).

Or, instead, an API write access to the module bonuses so we can create mods that do it.

/Approve

Making as many things as possible mutable is almost always a good thing.
Being able to via script manipulate module bonuses, or machine bonuses without modules, would be great.

could have module level 4s with the same initial stats as 3s but take 4 of the same type and one of each of the other types (so speed takes 4 speed 3s, 1 efficiency 3 and 1 productivity 3) and each infinite research gives +2-5% boost for their stat, it doesn't need to be any more expensive for infinite research than it is currently getting more than a few levels up for each takes dozens of rockets

I can imagine upgrading productivity modules would throw off the ratios of intermediates for every tier researched, which would be highly upsetting to a certain key demographic of this game...

Ingolifs wrote:I can imagine upgrading productivity modules would throw off the ratios of intermediates for every tier researched, which would be highly upsetting to a certain key demographic of this game...

well, when you improve the ratio of a module, you improve all modules at same time, affecting all the ratios. Unless they have some machines with productivity and other without, the ratio doesnt change. And even if it changes, there are two solutions: dont use the mod (if they implement the API) or design your factory accounting for that!

I don't see infinite modules being a problem to anyone, but it would lead to a whole bunch of new designs, all the old ones will still work of course but you would end up with growing efficiencies later on.

Productivity modules only work on intermediate products (and not all of them) and I don't see there being one line for all modules, there'd be speed module infinite, production infinite and efficiency infinite all independant of one another but that only means you can focus on speed and productivity while not worrying too much about efficiency until you reach a point where you can use the 'old' set ups again with slots free to put in efficiency modules to save energy

nagapito wrote:

Ingolifs wrote:I can imagine upgrading productivity modules would throw off the ratios of intermediates for every tier researched, which would be highly upsetting to a certain key demographic of this game...

well, when you improve the ratio of a module, you improve all modules at same time, affecting all the ratios. Unless they have some machines with productivity and other without, the ratio doesnt change. And even if it changes, there are two solutions: dont use the mod (if they implement the API) or design your factory accounting for that!

This is not true.
Assuming you have an assembler 3 with 4 prod 3 modules, each step of the production chain gives 1.4 products for the equivalent of 1 starting materials. This effect is multiplicative, which means for some material which is far down the crafting line (such as the flying robot frame or yellow science, being 6 assembly steps away from ore, can have their relative cost reduced by 1.4^6 = 7.5 times). The effect occurs at each step, meaning that with productivity, you need less at each production step to make the same amount of product. If productivity is constantly increasing throughout the game, then the player will have to refactor their base each time they do the research.

Ingolifs wrote:

nagapito wrote:

Ingolifs wrote:I can imagine upgrading productivity modules would throw off the ratios of intermediates for every tier researched, which would be highly upsetting to a certain key demographic of this game...

well, when you improve the ratio of a module, you improve all modules at same time, affecting all the ratios. Unless they have some machines with productivity and other without, the ratio doesnt change. And even if it changes, there are two solutions: dont use the mod (if they implement the API) or design your factory accounting for that!

This is not true.
Assuming you have an assembler 3 with 4 prod 3 modules, each step of the production chain gives 1.4 products for the equivalent of 1 starting materials. This effect is multiplicative, which means for some material which is far down the crafting line (such as the flying robot frame or yellow science, being 6 assembly steps away from ore, can have their relative cost reduced by 1.4^6 = 7.5 times). The effect occurs at each step, meaning that with productivity, you need less at each production step to make the same amount of product. If productivity is constantly increasing throughout the game, then the player will have to refactor their base each time they do the research.

This was my point do you really need to refactor the whole base do you really need perfect ratios at every stage of the game, if the current ratios work better ratios don't destroy your work, it takes 1.5 copper and 1 iron to make a green circuit, that's good, you boost it now with productivity 3s and you get 40% more so the price is effectively 0.76 copper and .71 iron right, you don't have a problem with that. I agree that because there are better ratios you can build more different more compact builds but the early game setups before you had beacons and modules will still function, if you give them the modules they'll even do so with these ratios but equally they'll be slow without the accompanying beacons. But time not being a factor you can get the same outputs for the same inputs. You don't need to refactor your base but because you then need a lot more of green circuits when you move onto making modules it's worthwhile doing, that and you've reached the point where you can achieve the peak performance possible in the game so you might as well get peak performance.

As I said with infinite modules at some point you'll reach a stage where using 3 infinite productivity modules would be the same as 4 productivity 3 modules at which point your set up is again 'perfect' because you can swap out one infinite productivity for a efficiency and save some electricity. Or you can ignore that fact and the bus, where you were using a whole blue line of copper or iron, will slowly back up and you can use those resources elsewhere. Unless you've absolutely perfectly tuned your factory and you don't mine a piece of ore unless you know you have an end product that will use it up you'll end up building in back logs into your system anyway. And when inevitably you make more than you can use the production of that thing shuts down by default with nowhere to place it.

Lets use your example of robots, you need X materials to make them now, for argument's sake you'll need X -5% per infinite tier you have researched (and a bit for multiple levels like copper into wire into circuits) The new research will allow you to make 5% extra construction robots with those resources. Are you seriously saying you're against that? Do you think anyone would argue that's a bad thing? So for that system making robots did you make it before or after you researched modules? I did mine before I had any modules. Then did you upgrade it with every new set of modules as soon as they became available? I didn't I waited until I had module 3s and beacons before I changed my initial set up. Could I have got more efficient resource use by changing everything up at each stage? yes but it'd have taken maybe 20 minutes to do that for each different component, ripping it out designing the intermediate stage replacing it and hooking it all in by which point if I'd left it alone I'd usually be onto yet another module stage. So would it be worth the effort to change at each module upgrade? no. So why do we all change when we reach module3s and beacons? you've reached the point where you can achieve the peak performance possible in the game so you might as well get peak performance, adding this would negate having a highest level. Then with every level of infinite research is it worth the effort of refactoring and restructuring your base to take advantage of every bit of efficiency? probably not. What's the alternative? you'll probably end up with set ups that are good for 0 infinite research so module 3s, and then at infinite 10 levels, 15, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26... etc and you'll build the ones that best suits you when you need to build a set up or are desperate for an upgrade and it'll continue doing the task even as better ones might work until you hit the point where that specific product needs another overhaul.

Cases where that in fact happens in 0.15 are: infinite mining productivity, you get more resources by only mining the bare minimum to get the research moving but people just run their miners as they always did. Infinite turret damage, you don't rebuild your defences every time you upgrade your turrets. And worker robot speed, nobody worries that getting a worker robot speed boost means they can do their whole logistics network better.

Yes there will absolutely be lots of people designing plenty of new interesting set ups for the various levels and combinations of levels of infinite modules if its added but I don't really think that's a bad thing. Building new setups and trying to make them better (alone or with the help of the community) is what the core community that "key demographic" are here for, they're the ones who'll have a bunch of fun designing the best science and nuclear set ups in 0.15, and trying to work out the best setups for the expensive recipes option, they're the ones that doing this would benefit. I agree, there are a bunch of people who just follow the same designs over and over, copying blueprints and letting the bots build the setup someone else designed and they might initially moan because they have to get a whole host of new blueprints and rethink a whole bunch of things but in the end they will follow the tide as we move again and again to more interesting and better setups following whatever is claiming to be the most efficient at the time and the people who make those setups they'll probably love this idea. I do.