Large Bridge Cranes

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DerivePi
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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by DerivePi »

When I first introduced this idea, it was initially about extended gameplay. Especially extended gameplay after establishing blue science. For me, the goal is to introduce a late game logistics system that adds challenge to the already established logistics system. Under the current system, we puzzle out complicated belt and inserter systems. But, towards the end of the game, this becomes simple. This puzzle is further simplified by the ease of logistics brought on by the logistic robot system. What late game challenge is left? I suppose we are mildly entertained by producing 50 level 3 speed modules, etc... But I think this would add some refreshment to the gameplay.

As for the challenges presented:
ssilk wrote:1. Where is the logic? I mean it hasn't to be realistic, but logical. Currently it has its own logic, which is quite simple: if it's not a placed entity it's an item, which you can take with you. Now this suggestion says we have a second type of item, which we cannot take. Like fluids. We need something to handle that also by hand. I see no other possibility, cause otherwise it looses the games logic.

2. Even with ignoring logic: how is this looking? I mean, there are those little pieces of items laying around? And now you say: no, you can't lift it. But the other can. We're here again with logics, but also the overall look of the game.
- Yes, this is a change to the "everything" can be carried in the players pocket. If a building were to require a bridge crane to place it, then, yes, the player would not be able to simply pick it up and move it to another place. For anyone who has needed to move a full fluid storage container, this is a familiar, yet doable challenge.
ssilk wrote:A) The ability to handle large objects needs to be researched. We get now a special stack, exactly for one large item. (*)
- No, lets not make this research. As you say, we need to carry Steam Generators from the beginning. I think this is more about excluding some late game items from being handled by the player, robots, belts or inserters. These items would only be handled by buildings, cranes and trains.
ssilk wrote:B) another idea, same direction, would be to be able handling such objects only with an antigravity technology.
- I chose cranes because people have a basis for understanding how they operate, and because they have distinct limitation that provide a challenge to the player. If all we had to do was place items on platforms, what additional challenge does that provide?

As for item "weights", I think that concept is captured in the stack size. Heavier items have fewer items in a stack. For these special items, think of the stack size as being less than 1.

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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by ssilk »

Ok, tell me one thing: Do you admit, that a crane is quite big and unhandy? If yes: How can I place a crane with a crane, if not: Where is the logic?

That is my problem with this suggestion.
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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by hitzu »

What I suggest:
It would be possible to assemble large buildings only on place - you build an empty platform (foundation) where you want your building to be, then you have to fill it with materials either manually, or using inserters (probably special welding inserters). You cannot move a building manually without disassembling it, or you could use large cranes.

To be honest I don't like this idea very much. This mechanics would add nothing, but artificial obstacles to the smooth gameplay. But I would like this for movable objects like trains and tanks.

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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by DerivePi »

hitzu wrote:What I suggest:
It would be possible to assemble large buildings only on place - you build an empty platform (foundation) where you want your building to be, then you have to fill it with materials either manually, or using inserters (probably special welding inserters). You cannot move a building manually without disassembling it, or you could use large cranes.

To be honest I don't like this idea very much. This mechanics would add nothing, but artificial obstacles to the smooth gameplay. But I would like this for movable objects like trains and tanks.
Yeah, I don't like the building idea either. Maybe the final spaceport would require a bridge crane to assemble, but that doesn't add much for me either. But, since the elements required to construct an orbital ship would require the bridge crane for delivery, it would be a moot point.

The thinking is that the bridge crane and train delivery system would be required for delivering multiple large items to a final assembly building. If we take the spaceport as an example:
- The spaceport must be separated from the rest of the factory due to rocket exhaust at takeoff.
- we need to assemble 10 rocket engines offsite. These are constructed in an assembler that is fed steel, brick, electric engines, etc...
- These massive rocket engines are just too big for the player to handle and must be delivered to the space port using a bridge crane to a rail line that has a flat bed wagon waiting for it.
- The rail line carries this rocket engine to another bridge crane that picks the engines off of the flat bed wagon and delivers it to the spaceport (the final assembly building).
- This is repeated for the fuel tanks, the fuselage, the cockpit, etc...
- Everything is automatable. Like an inserter, the bridge crane recognizes what a wagon is asking for and will deliver an item to/from that wagon when available

I think a game mechanic like this would refocus the player back on the big picture in the end game and give them a break from the tedium of laying out another remote mining outpost.

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suggestionsummary

Post by The Phoenixian »

So this is an awesome idea that's been on my mind since I first saw it and now that we have a something similar to a "best of" subforum I'd like to like to see to it that this is added there.

How does this look as a Suggestion summary?

Userstory: As a player I want a new logistic system for the movement of heavy items: Rather than being transported on belts, by drones, or through the player's inventory, the largest and heaviest items, especially large vehicles and vehicle parts, are instead carried by rail. (Carrying a rocket from the assembly building to the launch pad, moving a completed engine block to the drydock to build a ship, or shipping a tank to the front lines for example.)

Prerequisites: (If this applies to buildings) A means for a player to place buildings he cannot carry by himself.

Game-value: High: This is basically an entire new logistics system for players to use in their factories and one that uses the already excellent train system as a base. Moreover, as with the fluid system, it exists besides belts and drones instead of being an upgrade to them so having one system doesn't detract from the other.

Costs: High: New train cars, new graphics, new factories, new design flowcharts to work out, new items, ect.

User opinions: There are worries about the verisimilitude of not being able to carry a car, engine block (as opposed to engine unit), or locomotive while still being able to place something like a steam engine by hand
Last edited by ssilk on Sat May 16, 2015 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Some small editing, changed title to "suggestionsummary"
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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by Zhall »

+1 for cranes :D

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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by Malawi »

Garm wrote: E) SpaceEngineers style: Buildings by themselves are placed as blueprints only, players (and later machinery) finalize the construction by inserting necessary resources and constructing the building.

F) All at once: Players and machinery can craft "buildings" crates (C) so they can be easily placed and assembled on site (E) perhaps early buildings self-assemble. Very advanced buildings lack "crate form" (D) as such can only be built by machines by inserting basic components into placed blueprint.
I agree with both. You need to place a blueprint, ideally a ghost of the complete building where you can select production to see inputs/outputs. Then you need to have the special building crates to build it. It should also be possible to do this in stages, where you start with the first building-crate for the fundation, and then add more crates as you get more resources. say 4-5in total - of different compositions . The crates may be shared among different kinds of buildings. Say the base is stone/stone bricks. Then some steel and/or iron(for frameworks), then a crate with pipes and wires, a crate with wood and plastic(interior/equipment), and finally a crate with logic-boards and iron for the controls and exterior. Some of the crates would be general for all buildings, while some would be specific.

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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by bunce »

I have recently thinking about this exact idea, so i came here and searched for it. You guys are already talking about it and have the model all fleshed out. I love it and really hope the devs take notice!

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Vehicle deploy station

Post by Kamsta99 »

I think its great for better immersion to have vehicles unmineable. No more handy tank to deal with pesky bitters. Locomotive depot with machine to weld new locomotives(when making new blue sparks ...). Automatic fuel station will be also great.
Image
Garage for vehicles to store and deploy vehicles.

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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into older topic with same suggestion
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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by leadraven »

This theme involves core game concepts.
Complex and slow construction can be fun, but instant and free construction provides much more creative freedom. And that is the way of Factorio. It is a basic concept laid the foundation of the game and it cannot be changed, at least in vanilla.

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Adding cranes to the rail system

Post by tijlinater »

TL;DR
Unloading a freight train with inserters is not that exciting and also a bit slow.
What if the cargo container could be lifted off and moved by a crane?
What ?
Expand rail transportation so you have locomotives, wagons(just a rolling surface) and containers that go onto the wagons. Getting items in and out of containers is still done with normal inserters. This means you can keep using the rail system as it is right now if you choose to do so.
The idea is that you then also have the possibility to put a crane over your rails. This essentially is an inserter for containers, it can take a loaded container from a wagon and put it a few tiles away from the tracks (where you would still use normal inserters to unload it). It could then also pick up a spare empty container and put it onto the now containerless wagon. This makes it so the train doesnt have to wait for the inserters to empty the entire cargo, instead the crane can pick up the container, put a different one ontop and the train is instantly good to go again. It could look like this:
Image

As an extra addition you could have a tech that enables double stacking countainers on a single wagon, and I'm sure the factorio playerbase will make some really amazing original designs with these.
Image
Why ?
Right now trains are really cool but they suffer from multiple problems that make them only occasionally worth implementing. I believe my idea would be a postive change because of the following reasons
  • It does not FORCE anybody to change
  • It decreases the time it takes a train to unload -> Higher throughput without needing to use multiple locomotives on the same track
  • It would look amazing
  • It makes really long trains with multiple stops more viable (this is what new players usually try first)
  • The double layer containers can increase the capacity a single train moves lategame -> Higher throughput
As a final smaller suggestion I would also ask the devs to reconsider the storage size of a container/cargo wagon (40 spaces). Isn't it a bit silly that a large 6x2 cargo wagon right now fits less than a 1x1 steel chest (48 spaces).

Please let me know what you think!
Is my suggestion good? Is it thrash? Is it impossible to implement? Or is it just going in a direction the devs don't want for the rail system?

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Re: Adding cranes to the rail system

Post by Deadlock989 »

tijlinater wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:15 pm
Right now trains are really cool but they suffer from multiple problems that make them only occasionally worth implementing.
I need to stop reading these threads. Desk won't take many more collisions with my forehead.

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Re: Adding cranes to the rail system

Post by tijlinater »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:18 pm
tijlinater wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:15 pm
Right now trains are really cool but they suffer from multiple problems that make them only occasionally worth implementing.
I need to stop reading these threads. Desk won't take many more collisions with my forehead.
Since your comment is just a vague insult I'll assume you mean to argue that trains are not weak right now...?

But the reality is that unless you change the resource spread on the map, trains are objectively worse than belts. Especially if we are speaking about launching a single rocket. Even if you were to play on the 'rail world' preset I doubt you'd actually use many trains in a speedrun right now. So essentially they are only usefull for playing a game where launching a single rocket is not the end goal.

With the cranes I suggest even on a default map trains could also be a great way to get a ton of ore to the smeltery on a single file medium length traintrack (2 locomotives 1 wagon) instead of just laying for example 4 belts.

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Re: Adding cranes to the rail system

Post by Claviduck »

I like the idea. There was someone already thinking of such a cargo set related to the cargo ship mod. In that case, the container is not only placeable on the ground but instead also on the cargo ship.
Even if the devs will not implement it, there is a chance that a mod will be created for that purpose. Unfortunately, I am not capable of doing such a thing. But stuff like bulk rail loader already exists as mods.

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Re: Adding cranes to the rail system

Post by BlueTemplar »

tijlinater wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:01 pm
tijlinater wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:15 pm
Right now trains are really cool but they suffer from multiple problems that make them only occasionally worth implementing.
Especially if we are speaking about launching a single rocket. Even if you were to play on the 'rail world' preset I doubt you'd actually use many trains in a speedrun right now.
Which is only one way of playing Factorio. Also, try marathon - you'll need to expand at last twice from your starting patches to beat the game...

The idea itself is fairly cool, but squarely into modding territory, as pretty redundant with inserters...
(Also, I bet that you can already do that using https://mods.factorio.com/mod/VehicleWagon2 ?)

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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by Koub »

[Koub] : Merged into older "add cranes for trains" thread.
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Re: Large Bridge Cranes

Post by ssilk »

I recommend using some compression/boxing mod. It makes such ideas not useless, but really not needed. I currently use https://mods.factorio.com/mod/deadlock- ... es-loaders , because it is really fast and has a good balance, but there are lots more.

With that mod loading a wagon with compressed materials takes 3 rotations (with 12 stack inserters). And it adds a quite interesting new aspect, how you can use the compression efficiently.
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