Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

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Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by bobis32 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:05 pm

I feel the title is self explanitory however when crafting certain items it would be a good idea to be able to grab them from a farther distance as well as allowing space for storage inside the factories by making larger spaces within the assembly machines

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:15 pm

The title is self explanatory but isn't relevant to the actual post lol.

Factorio is something like "making complex factories with simple tools". Long Handle Inserters are generally there to allow you to have an assembler interact with two belts lanes per side, so you can feed a row of assemblers up to six components (seven, but no room in vanilla and would share with the output) and still output to a belt. If you need to use them for high throughput or filtering in vanilla then you're doing something wrong.

As for the rest of it... what? As far as I can work out you want more range, there's a console command but I don't know it, but its default is one of the limitations of the game designed to encourage you to supply yourself better and eventually use bots. Larger spaces in the assembly machines...? I have no idea =/ could you elaborate?
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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by MeduSalem » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:30 pm

Haha... somehow the suggestions for new inserters never stop even though there should be less inserter mess in vanilla already. Most of the existing ones are completely redundant. Their small differences currently don't really justify having them anymore.

Somehow there is only really a reason to have 4 Inserters right now:
  • Burner Inserter ... early game, low throughput & to make setups independent from electric network.
  • Long-Handed Inserter ... for the hard-to-reach locations. (which imho should be able to set a Filter too)
  • Filter Inserter ... most of the game for average throughput.
  • Stack Filter Inserter ... Train Stations/High throughput.
Everything else might not even exist in vanilla and basically only takes up menu and inventory space for no good.

Why even place a regular yellow Inserter or Fast inserter if a Filter Inserter can do? Same with Stack Inserter and Stack Filter Inserter... why use the first if I can do it with the second. Requires me to carry around less items.

The point of "energy consumption differs"/"speed is different" is almost negligible because all the thousands of inserters make up maybe 1-2% of the total energy used of the entire factory, even if I used Filter Inserters and Stack Filters everywhere.

Also ever since all Inserters are capable of Circuit Network connections there is no real point anymore in having that many different inserters as there are currently in the game. The removal of the smart inserter basically also marked the end of having that many diverse inserters in the first place.


In my opinion all inserters except the above should be removed from the game. And for different "tiers" there should basically be research, which enables more features for each existing Inserter over time (like Circuit Network connection, speed upgrade, filter upgrade, stack size upgrade).

I might as well be in for the argument that the Stack Inserters as their own entity are like a "bandaid" idea, and instead it should have been the regular Filter Inserter just with Stack Size upgrades through Research and let people decide for each inserter individually how big the stack size should be for that particular inserter (via Circuit Network signal or setting a number). The Stack Inserter didn't really solve the problem of uncompressed belts anyways because that's what the Loader would have been good for.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Yoyobuae » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:03 pm

MeduSalem wrote:Why even place a regular yellow Inserter or Fast inserter if a Filter Inserter can do? Same with Stack Inserter and Stack Filter Inserter... why use the first if I can do it with the second. Requires me to carry around less items.
Pick more than 5 different item types. Filter inserter would need invertable filter for it to trully replace yellow/blue inserters (that's probably a good idea of its own, though). If so then they should default to empty+inverted filter, due to QoL reasons.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Slayn25 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:24 pm

MeduSalem wrote:Why even place a regular yellow Inserter or Fast inserter if a Filter Inserter can do? Same with Stack Inserter and Stack Filter Inserter... why use the first if I can do it with the second. Requires me to carry around less items.

The point of "energy consumption differs"/"speed is different" is almost negligible because all the thousands of inserters make up maybe 1-2% of the total energy used of the entire factory, even if I used Filter Inserters and Stack Filters everywhere.
Because that 2% plus the the resources saved for cheaper inserters makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (only somewhat serious lol). Not to say that I care enough to support any kind of change, but I could see just 2 inserters, short & long, w/ a basic generator added for early/off-the-grid setups.

As for long handed stack inserters, could be a good idea but one thing to consider is that only being able to have high input/output on the closer lanes creates a logistical problem to solve.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by BenSeidel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:38 am

Yoyobuae wrote:
MeduSalem wrote:Why even place a regular yellow Inserter or Fast inserter if a Filter Inserter can do? Same with Stack Inserter and Stack Filter Inserter... why use the first if I can do it with the second. Requires me to carry around less items.
Pick more than 5 different item types. Filter inserter would need invertable filter for it to trully replace yellow/blue inserters (that's probably a good idea of its own, though). If so then they should default to empty+inverted filter, due to QoL reasons.
Or just add the circuit networks "everything" to the list of selectable filters.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by MeduSalem » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:53 am

Slayn25 wrote:Because that 2% plus the the resources saved for cheaper inserters makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (only somewhat serious lol). Not to say that I care enough to support any kind of change, but I could see just 2 inserters, short & long, w/ a basic generator added for early/off-the-grid setups.
Haha. Yeah I get where you are coming from... I did that too for quite a long time... only upgrade yellow to Fast or Filter if necessary and so on, but after a while that micromanagement got on my nerves because it convoluted my inventory/toolbar since I had to have every type of Inserter with me... and it only got worse since Stack Inserters are a thing.

But that said the recipes could obviously be "tweaked" in the case of removing redundant inserters... so that people don't feel that it is too easy or too hard.
BenSeidel wrote:
Yoyobuae wrote:Pick more than 5 different item types. Filter inserter would need invertable filter for it to trully replace yellow/blue inserters (that's probably a good idea of its own, though). If so then they should default to empty+inverted filter, due to QoL reasons.
Or just add the circuit networks "everything" to the list of selectable filters.
The inverted filter has been suggested multiple times anyways and would come in handy on several occasions, so it should probably be its own QoL option, yes.

The "everything" signal would also be possible... and probably could also be its own QoL option to extend Circuit Network functionality.


But the more player intuitive solution probably is... consider following: To set up a filter inserter you have to click on the inserter and go to into its menu anyways, right? At least once to set up all its static filters or to select that you want to update the filter signals by Circuit Network.

So it would be possible if you initially place down a Filter Inserter it acts like a regular Fast inserter, picking everything... and since you have to go into its menu anyways to select the static filters or to specify that you want to update the filters by Circuit Network... it only starts acting like a filter inserter once you chose these options. After that it doesn't grab everything anymore and considers the "no filter" signal (that might come with the Circuit Network) as "don't pick anything unless you are told so".

So from a convenience perspective... not really anything got more complicated. If you want to act it as Fast Inserter you plop it down and forget about it. If you want to act it like a Filter Inserter you have to take your sweet time and click on it anyways to set it up (like currently).

... and both your above mentioned features (Inverted Filter, Everything Signal) could also be implemented on top of that too since our three approaches are not mutually exclusive.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Roxor128 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:17 am

Actually, come to think of it, Fast Inserters, Filter Inserters, and Stack Inserters seem more like add-ons for existing devices rather than whole new devices.

We could instead just have Burner Inserters, Short-arm Inserters, and Long-arm Inserters, and have upgrade modules which can be bolted onto the latter two which add the functionality of faster movement, filtering, and handling stacks.

Heck, you could even just add that functionality to the Inserters' menus as you complete the relevant research or re-use the existing speed modules for the faster movement capability.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Ragnaman » Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:03 pm

Roxor128 wrote:...and have upgrade modules which can be bolted onto the latter two...
module slots for inserters ? maybe belts too ?
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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by MeduSalem » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:03 am

Roxor128 wrote:Actually, come to think of it, Fast Inserters, Filter Inserters, and Stack Inserters seem more like add-ons for existing devices rather than whole new devices.

We could instead just have Burner Inserters, Short-arm Inserters, and Long-arm Inserters, and have upgrade modules which can be bolted onto the latter two which add the functionality of faster movement, filtering, and handling stacks..
As for modules I have to stick with Ragnaman... and say no because that's too much of a hassle.
Roxor128 wrote:Heck, you could even just add that functionality to the Inserters' menus as you complete the relevant research for the faster movement capability.
But that's what I would agree on. It's the easiest solution to the Inserter madness.
Ragnaman wrote:module slots for inserters ? maybe belts too ?
When it comes to belts I proposed a sensible way to do something similar a while ago.

There I suggested removing the red/blue belts... and rather have one type of belt and something like a "belt-motor" that you plop ontop of the belt every now and then that has something like an area-of-effect... where a distinctive amount of belt tiles (including Underground Belts and Splitters) gets affected by the Belt Motor. Inside the belt motor you could place speed Modules or provide Lubricant to make it move faster. If you don't provide any modules/lubricant the belt returns to default yellow belt speed.

Would have the benefit that mods could rely on the system just by adding faster speed modules rather than having to convulute the menus with 10 new belt speed types.

So basically the Belt Motor would act as a Beacon for Belts.

My idea spawned as a compromise between the suggestion of having magic belt movement as of now and making belts require energy.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by ssilk » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:18 am

Hm. It's useful to use slow belts in some (tricky) situations. An area effect would not allow that. You need to upgrade each belt separately. There are other ways to upgrade mass of belts.

I like the idea with the three basic inserters (burner, short
-arm, long-arm) and upgrade with modules. :) The hassle would not appear, if I can "mix" the currently needed inserter in my quick-bar together. Place belt and drag module over it (for example) and resulting item is changed.
But I fear it's still too much hassle.
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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Yoyobuae » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:31 pm

ssilk wrote:Hm. It's useful to use slow belts in some (tricky) situations. An area effect would not allow that. You need to upgrade each belt separately. There are other ways to upgrade mass of belts.

I like the idea with the three basic inserters (burner, short
-arm, long-arm) and upgrade with modules. :) The hassle would not appear, if I can "mix" the currently needed inserter in my quick-bar together. Place belt and drag module over it (for example) and resulting item is changed.
But I fear it's still too much hassle.
Upgrading stuff is one aspect that could use some work. Even more so if placing some specific type of inserter would require 2 or 3 upgrades from the base model.

Can't think of a clean+elegant way of doing it which is actually an improvement over the current "one inserter item per each type of inserter" way.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Ragnaman » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:50 pm

MeduSalem wrote: There I suggested removing the red/blue belts... and rather have one type of belt and something like a "belt-motor"
Well, your suggestion is sensible. Im certainly liking how Yuoki handled mechanical energy transmission (for his Yuoki's motors mod).
At this point the best bet for "less amount of belt types" is a technology research solution (where belts just get faster, underground distance longer, etc.) Resource costs for research could scale with amount of belts placed.
Same could work for inserters, but inserters are special kind of snowflake, sometimes you want to use a slower inserter...that makes me think that sometimes id like to use a slower belt too...why is life so complicated.

My sarcastic response was about imagining the absolute hell of putting a module inside every single belt or inserter on the map :D
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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by MeduSalem » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:19 am

ssilk wrote:Hm. It's useful to use slow belts in some (tricky) situations. An area effect would not allow that. You need to upgrade each belt separately. There are other ways to upgrade mass of belts.
Where exactly would one need slow belts in "tricky" situations?

I mean I get that some Inserters like Burner Inserters have trouble picking up from Express Belts and so on, which is why a standard yellow belt is sufficient in Boiler/Steam Engine setups or something similar like that. But that's where you wouldn't put such an area-of-effect item anyways because you know that the Inserters won't be able to react fast enough.

I never encountered anything else where I needed a slow belt. In endgame I only use Express Belts (if I use belts at all) for everything... except above mentioned Boiler + Burner Inserter configurations.

At least I have a hard time imagining such a contraption where a self-imposed throughput limit is absolutely necessary to make it work.


If you are refering to the stupid belt braiding crap... I hate belt braiding and consider it an abomination and cheat that should never have reached official feature status... and I'm not the only one thinking about it like that.
ssilk wrote:I like the idea with the three basic inserters (burner, short-arm, long-arm) and upgrade with modules. :) The hassle would not appear, if I can "mix" the currently needed inserter in my quick-bar together. Place belt and drag module over it (for example) and resulting item is changed.
But I fear it's still too much hassle.
Well the "mixing on the quick-bar" would basically make it as awful as it is currently, if not uglier because there would probably be a lot of weird special combinations due to the various modules, convuluting the quick-bar quite fast.

In the case of modules I think that placing the item first and then putting modules inside it is the better approach, but nobody feels like doing that initially. It would force people to look into module crafting much earlier in the game, which most people currently consider endgame stuff. Later on it could be automated with blueprints and blueprint books anyways so you only have to set up only one Inserter correctly and then blueprint it over and over, but I think people would still quite hate how fiddly everything becomes. Personally I could live with it... actually I think that it would be a good showcase of using the blueprint book to your advantage, where you have one blueprint book with all the different Inserter Designs and Module Combinations and cycle through the blueprint book for the correct inserter.



But I think Inserter upgrades per research is also sufficient and probably easier.

The difference between Standard Yellow Inserter and Fast Inserter is the speed... that can be a speed (endless?) research upgrade.
The difference between Fast Inserter and Filter Inserter is the Filter Settings... which could also be a onetime research upgrade, or maybe multiple levels, with each level gaining additional filter slots.
The difference between Regular Inserters and Stack Inserters is the Stacksize... which could also be an endless research upgrade.
The Circuit Network and Logistic Network connections are already research upgrades.

The Long-Handed inserter would basically gain all the same features as the regular Inserter with the research upgrades, just that it has an increased range (and increased initial crafting costs).



By the way I'm already considering that the same could basically be done with Assemblers too... There's not really a need for 3 types of assemblers... the additional crafting speed and resource slots for more advanced recipes, as well as module slots could be research upgrades as well, with the crafting speed maybe even being an endless research upgrade.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Yoyobuae » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:43 am

I personally hate research magically having a global effect on stuff already built. *stares at inserter capacity bonus*

Having so many research apply upgrades instantly across the factory would be extremely annoying.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by MeduSalem » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:55 am

Yoyobuae wrote:I personally hate research magically having a global effect on stuff already built. *stares at inserter capacity bonus*

Having so many research apply upgrades instantly across the factory would be extremely annoying.
Yeah, I thought about that too... but I think somewhere there's also got to be a compromise with the existing playerbase and not to forget about the vision the devs have.

If one starts using Modules everywhere, then why not also in Turrets/Weapons and whatnot because research magically making bullets/lasers stronger/faster is also "weird" in a magical sense... You see where that train of thought leads to.

I would have tons of modular concepts for the entire game... and there's probably also the kind of players who really love all the ways to customize or re-arrange stuff to suit one's personal needs... the more complex the better or so. And if the game would have been like that from the very beginning then people would be accustomed to that.

But I think that the guys at wube don't really like it... they are more the type of "if something is too fiddly, make it happen magically"... so tons of magic global research upgrades it is.

That or the other way would be convulute the crafting menus and inventories with variations and subvariations of the same item... and that's what makes me sick.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Yoyobuae » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:19 am

MeduSalem wrote:If one starts using Modules everywhere, then why not also in Turrets/Weapons and whatnot because research magically making bullets/lasers stronger/faster is also "weird" in a magical sense... You see where that train of thought leads to.
I don't care about turrets/weapon upgrades. Those usually won't break working factory contraptions. And if it does break some factory, I would say it's due to poor design.

But stuff like inserter/belt/assembler speed bonus research make me cringe. It's bad enough already with inserter capacity bonus.

If any of that is done then it needs to be controllable via mods (which is another issue with inserter capacity bonus, it's hardcoded as a global effect, not even mods can change that).

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by MeduSalem » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:24 am

Yoyobuae wrote:I don't care about turrets/weapon upgrades. Those usually won't break working factory contraptions. And if it does break some factory, I would say it's due to poor design.

But stuff like inserter/belt/assembler speed bonus research make me cringe. It's bad enough already with inserter capacity bonus.

If any of that is done then it needs to be controllable via mods (which is another issue with inserter capacity bonus, it's hardcoded as a global effect, not even mods can change that).
Ah well. I think that the main issue is actually only the inserter stack size bonus. That's the only real problem when it comes to being able to control item amounts exactly. Being able to set that via circuit network is necessary no matter what, no matter if the inserters get slipstreamed or if there's endless speed or stack size upgrades or not.

Speed upgrades for Inserters probably wouldn't have such a dramatic influence because no circuit network designs really depend on the speed bonus (and if so I find them inherently bad designs that would break with the smallest change of speed if the devs decide to change it for some reason). Actually when it comes to speed it's the faster the better in most cases thanks to increased reaction time to ever changing belt contents.

For the Belts... well a belt-motor with modules for an area-of-effect bonus would basically be something that you chose to place there anyways... so it wouldn't be really affected by global research upgrades.

The assembler speed as a research upgrade would also not really break anything... if at all it would craft faster and the only thing that might happen is that it sits idle a lot more due to inserters not being able to keep up, but that's not really breaking anything, but more of a poor utilization problem that could be alleviated by researching inserter speed/stacksize upgrades.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by Yoyobuae » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:53 pm

My count exact, tick exact, slot exact contraptions heavily disagree with you. :P

Did you know that south facing inserters takes one tick longer than north facing inserters when inserting from box to belt? Well, I noticed because it spoiled the perfect lane alignment when creating a compressed belt by using inserters.

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Re: Stack and Filtered Long Hand inserters

Post by ssilk » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:35 pm

MeduSalem wrote:
ssilk wrote:Hm. It's useful to use slow belts in some (tricky) situations. An area effect would not allow that. You need to upgrade each belt separately. There are other ways to upgrade mass of belts.
Where exactly would one need slow belts in "tricky" situations?
One example I described here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35580&p=221757&hili ... lt#p221757
Image
Only this combination is able to transport both lanes of the basic belt. If you replace basic belt with express belt, only one lane is needed.

Well, I admit it's a rare case. But I'm sure, there are more.
I never encountered anything else where I needed a slow belt. In endgame I only use Express Belts (if I use belts at all) for everything... except above mentioned Boiler + Burner Inserter configurations.
Well, when I remember back, I did it the same.
But now I'm really not for any kind of "automatic replacement". This gives the player a feeling of "this must be done to play the game 'right'". But it is sooooo expensive to use express belts. Or eplace basic belts with fast or - much uglier - express belts. IMHO in most cases not really needed. The problem is, that the game "looks like", that this is needed. But the truth is, that you make a faster progress, if you try to not use them and place parallel belts instead (where possible of course).

At least I have a hard time imagining such a contraption where a self-imposed throughput limit is absolutely necessary to make it work.
If you are refering to the stupid belt braiding crap... I hate belt braiding and consider it an abomination and cheat that should never have reached official feature status... and I'm not the only one thinking about it like that.
What is belt braiding?
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